W the actual F - title options on gov. security clearance forms

[Mallorie]

I've been instructed to fill in an online form to obtain basic level security clearance for a new project at work. The form is provided by disclosureservices.com on behalf of the UK government.

Page 1, select Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss/Baroness/Dr, whatever. I choose Ms.

Page 6, have you ever been known by any other name? Well, no, I haven't, but since I chose Ms earlier, the 'no' option is non-functional and I must either a. enter a surname I've gone by previously or b. go back to page 1 and change Ms to Miss.

The 'explanation' they give on the in-form guidance is basically that lots of women are too dumb forget to enter their 'maiden name' (GOD I hate that phrase) so they've decided to construct the form this way to account for that, rather than, I don't know, adding in an extra reminder on this page as an 'are you sure?' pop-up message, for example. They say it's to ensure the forms are completed correctly and that no sexism is intended.

And just to make it that much better, if you are transgender, on the very first page, they offer an alternative to filling out the online form so that you don't have to disclose your previous name where your employer will see it. So they obviously HAVE thought of accommodating some people... just not, you know, actual women who want to use the actual title that forms part of their actual name.

So, if you're Ms but have no other name you've been known by, you can't actually have the title of Ms according to this form? Can you put in the same surname (your only surname) in the box or will it not accept that?

Really awful casual, thoughtless sexism from the sound of it. Can you challenge it? Plenty of women use only Ms and have never changed their surname, married and unmarried alike, so it seems like a pretty fundamental flaw in the online form.

that's ridiculous and they should probably change it for security

I mean, shouldn't everyone be asked "have you ever been known by another name" - apart from the bonkers sexist factor.

I have filled out the official complaints form on the relevant govermental web page, so we'll see how it goes. I did try to re-enter my own surname with a 'dates known by' as my birth month and year to May 2018 but it wouldn't let me proceed. I haven't submitted the form at this point, but have let my company HR rep who manages security clearances know that I am being asked to enter a title that I don't use, and what should I do? I'll be interested to see what he says.

That is hideous. I'd complain to the relevant government minister or your own MP. It makes no sense. Is it trying to say that at one point all women's legal names were Miss Anna Jones, and so if you write Ms Anna Jones, something has changed? Just in case Mrs Anna Smith (nee Jones) forgets? But even then surely it should only apply if it's Mrs, not Ms? Or is it that Ms Anna Jones can only be a Ms because she is the divorced Mrs Anna Smith who has forgotten both her marriage and her divorce, but would otherwise be reminded by this prompt?

Even by that stupid logic, it makes no sense. The name hasn't changed. The title has

Next time select Baronness!

I never know why the stupid titles are needed by anyone anyway and I always avoid them if I can get away with it.

Definitely complain.

@NoMorePills -everyone is asked if they've gone by another name, but apparently the only people who are allowed to say no are those who go by Mr, Miss, and presumably Doctor, Reverend, etc. - if you are a woman without a professional title who has had the same name since birth, then 'Miss' is your only option.

You could state that you object to being forced to use Miss or Mrs - so in addition to it being incorrect you are actually opposed to the alternatives. Essentially, from the sound of it it's essentially asking you to lie if you normally use Ms which doesn't seem a great thing to force people to do on a security clearance form ffs

That's bad. I normally choose Dr where I can't choose Ms (I'm not a dr!) but you can't really lie on an official security form! Can you call up the trans number?

If you don't consider yourself a Miss you could say if they're going to force you to lie you'll go with Dr / Baroness etc.

I'm a Ms who has only ever had one surname, which means I can't complete this form accurately, is that right?

@tribpot yes that's right. You would be in the same boat as me. The same stupid, sexist boat.

I would also be in the sexist boat. Stupid boat.
It makes a complete mockery of the whole concept of Ms, doesn't it.

Yes, surely the point of providing the information in the first place is to assert your correct identity and have that used to search other records to confirm you aren't a security risk. So if this search fails because I've provided an incorrect title, won't this materially affect my ability to get security clearance? If it doesn't affect the search, why is the information being asked for?

Could you not just put the same surname into the compulsory ‘other name’ field? That way you are being accurate as to your title and surname throughout!

@fairgroundsnack I did try that, but it also makes you put in the 'dates known by' that name - and when I put in my birth month and year to May 2018 it wouldn't let me proceed. So they can apparently handle that somewhat complex form validation, but not throw in a little javascript popup to say 'are you sure you've put in all your previous names, including those you might have been known by before marriage, if relevant?' before you go to the next page of the form.

Page 6, have you ever been known by any other name? Well, no, I haven't, but since I chose Ms earlier, the 'no' option is non-functional and I must either a. enter a surname I've gone by previously or b. go back to page 1 and change Ms to Miss

I have just done one of these on Disclosure Scotland.

I entered "Ms" . It is printed as "Ms". I didn't have to enter any other surname and I ticked "No" to have I been known by any other name?.

Just checked it with the same details and it was happy with these responses.

The Scottish version only gives you options of Mr, Mrs, Ms, Miss or other.

I experimented with using "Mrs" and it still allows me to have the option of answering "No" to have I been known by any other name?

@Lass I was directed to use disclosureservices.com which is a different provider than Disclosure Scotland. I took a screenshot of the guidance text, as attached. I also have Scottish clearance, FWIW and I don't remember any problems with the forms when I filled them out a few years ago.

It's obviously POSSIBLE to allow women to use Ms with no previously used name on these forms but for whatever reason (I think laziness combined with a sort of breezy 'no one will REALLY care' sort of sexism) the provider used by the UK government has chosen not to.

You should complain and refer them to Disclose Scotland.

How very odd. Very interested to hear what response you get back.

I started using Mrs sometime after I got married but never changed my name. Would that be a problem for this form as well?

I started using Mrs sometime after I got married but never changed my name. Would that be a problem for this form as well?

Probably for this form but not for the Scottish version.

Thanks Lass, that's good to know.

I see it wasn't "intended to be inherently sexist". Well it is inherently sexist. I can't figure out whether the fact it wasn't intended to be is good or bad. However the dismissal of what must be a large proportion of women (who use Ms) in this way - it wasn't intended and we don't care and aren't going to do anything about it - is adding a whole new level of sexism quite frankly. It would be quite easy to ensure people put in their birth surname by other means.

So they don't intend to change it but they have no guidance on how to fill the form in correctly if your title is Ms and your surname has never changed. If it was to put your current surname in as your previous surname, that would be annoying but you could live with it given the infrequency of interacting with the system, but it sounds as if that doesn't work either.

I was similarly outraged about this earlier this year. Well done for complaining!

This happened when I needed to renew my CRB disclosure in England about 8 years ago. I was filling in this form with recruitment team who didn’t get why I was quite shocked by this. In the end I had to change my title to Miss, because it was standing in the way of me being able to get a pay rise! I complained to HR at the time about this.

What I don’t understand is how the incorrect perception that Ms means you have had a previous surname is holding such sway that not only did they design an official form in such a way as to assume Ms must mean you are divorced and have reverted back to your maiden name, but that 8 years on this still be the case and they have to have no plans to change it! It was bad enough when I thought it was some gaffe that bunch of techie people had made when designing the form and thought it would have been fixed ages ago!