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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

We run from TIM's run to

48 replies

spontaneousgiventime · 17/05/2018 14:18

Stereotypes.

I watched the MB program last night and was in despair amongst other emotions It was packed with the very stereotypes we are trying to escape from.

When my husband was alive I used to de-fuzz all the time. Why? I genuinely don't know, he didn't ask me to. Maybe it was just a feeling it was the 'done thing'. Since he died I no longer shave (epilate in my case) apart from my pits and that's for hygiene reasons. All winter I used the fuzz to keep warm, my legs didn't get a shave once. Even now I would only do it if I was wearing cropped trousers, a skirt or dress very, very rare

I hardly ever wear make up, it has to be for a special occasion or event and even then I keep as neutral as possible. Today, I am wearing an old pair of joggers in a size to big so I look like a sack of spuds tied in the middle. I also have on an old vest top I ought eons ago. I'm not going out today so haven't even brushed my hair, after my shower I just towel dried it and shook.

TIM's do all the things we want to escape from, face full of make up and primped to the Nth degree. It's taking us back to a place I and many more of us don't want to go. I fully respect the rights of anyone to wear and present as they choose. I don't think anyone should be made to feel bad for that. I just want TIM's to know, be who you want to be, dress how you want but please, don't take women down the rabbit hole of regression, we are only just seeing light from years of climbing.

Seeing the surgery scene last night and MB claiming it's to make MB 'the person they feel they are' made me angry, it's vanity pure and simple. Hours of reading trans forums have given me an insight into a world full of these damaging stereotypes, yet TIM's think that's #whatmakesawoman.

This post is a tad disjointed - sorry. I just wanted to put my thoughts down and see what others think.

OP posts:

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 17/05/2018 19:29

Virtually all women I know when they've just given birth don't shave, wear makeup, wear feminine clothes or heels (who has the time?). Surely, having just grown and birthed a human being we should be considered to be at our most womanly then?

TerfAndSerf · 17/05/2018 19:34

IW was happy for those dress codes to be enforced on women, I doubt IW would be happy to do the job though.....🤔

changeypants · 17/05/2018 20:22

Exactly ineedacup.... Also funny how nobody seems to want plastic surgery to add a stretch mark riddled stomach....

Original poster

spontaneousgiventime · 17/05/2018 20:36

Indeed, lets have the vanity surgery not the reality. So much for wanting to be 'real' women eh?

OP posts:

R0wantrees · 20/05/2018 13:32

Link to thread also discussing Munroe Bergdorf's recent program:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3251002-Munroe-Bergdorf-What-Makes-a-Woman-Channel-4-16-5

SupermatchGame · 20/05/2018 20:31

A lot of trans women have to use female 'supporting materials' (makeup/ hair/ clothes) at least early on in transition as they wouldn't be able to present as a women in terms of society's expectations either in terms of sex or gender. Even where it is more about sex, if they didn't use these accoutrements then people in their everyday life wouldn't know they were intending to present as female.

I think there are other reasons although this probably isn't the place to discuss it.

There are gnc trans women they're just not necessarily shouting about it but here are some - not what you would necessarily accept as women but they show they're not all stereotypes:

expressivearts.egs.edu/allucquere-rosanne-sandy-stone genderfork.com/2013/happy-mtf-butch/ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eli_Erlick

HerFemaleness · 20/05/2018 20:52

The one in the youtube video is exactly a stereotype. Look at him, all waving hands and head tilting and showing lots of teeth when talking. Exactly the way women are socialised in to behaving so they present themselves as fluffy and soft and not to be taken seriously.

pombear · 20/05/2018 20:55

yep, lovely video. As always - me, me , me, me, me. Meeee. (Plus: Why won't you let me in to the loos)

Also, male person tells female people to shave their hair. Doh - lots of women have done this over the years. We get it. Many of us have lived with challenging the 'supporting materials of the sterotype'. There's more to life than stereotypes. I suspect that many of the women on these threads do not adhere to displaying the 'supporting materials' that you mention.

Displaying or not displaying feminine stereotypes, it still doesn't make you a biological female, with all the shit that goes along with it.

SupermatchGame · 20/05/2018 21:06

No it makes you a female with some of the sh!t that goes along with it and some different sh!t that goes along with it. The point was that not all of them are stereotypic in appearance which was what was claimed earlier.

I can see what you mean Her about the mannerisms. Problem for me is while I'm sitting here in part agreeing with you, at the same time it is making me feel like I'm partaking in some sort of mean girls/ bullying/ snigger at the different person type thing.

Ereshkigal · 20/05/2018 21:11

No it makes you a female with some of the sh!t that goes along with it and some different sh!t that goes along with it.

It doesn't make you a female. It makes you a male trying to present as what you see as female.

And why can't you write the word "shit"? People swear here, we're all adults.

SupermatchGame · 20/05/2018 21:26

She's actually a post op woman so I would say that makes her female.

And why can't you write the word "s
I don't know. Maybe I'll give it a go sometime.

Ereshkigal · 20/05/2018 21:29

You would, but you'd be wrong. You can't change sex.

SupermatchGame · 20/05/2018 21:35

You can legally, hormonally and in some respects anatomically.

Ereshkigal · 20/05/2018 21:36

Nope.

LaSqrrl · 20/05/2018 21:48

if they didn't use these accoutrements then people in their everyday life wouldn't know they were intending to present as female.

One person's "accoutrements" is another's straight jacket.
The entire point of the thread. Since the second wave we have being saying a big loud "no, this shit should not be mandatory", then along come trans...

LaSqrrl · 20/05/2018 21:50

You can legally,

Let us examine legally:
It used to be legal for a man to rape a woman if they were married
It used to be legal for a man to beat a woman if they were married

Lots of anti-woman shit used to be legal. That is not any kind of validation that it is right.

SupermatchGame · 20/05/2018 21:52

it should not be mandatory", then along come trans...

Yes I get that. But for some people it is about changing their sexed body. Not about the accoutrements. For them the straight jacket is having a body that doesn't feel like them. Having a vagina feels more 'right' than having a penis. Having a face that people perceive as female rather than male feels more right, more like them. It isn't always about the makeup and clothes.

Picassospaintbrush · 20/05/2018 21:58

vagina

I will just leave that there.

SardineReturns · 20/05/2018 22:04

But you can't make a vagina. It's a complex organ.

You can make an approximation of a vagina.

Same as you can't make breasts. Breasts are also very complex. You can make an approximation.

The reduction of a vagina to a hole, and breasts to bumps on the chest, is to reduce them to a very male view of what they are (hole to stick a penis in, bumps to look at and feel) and to ignore their actual physiological functions. It is highly redcutive. Reductive in the way that male dominated society has always been about women's bodies and what they do. The bits that men can't have fun with are deemed disgusting and to be hidden.

The misogyny with all of this is very plain to see.

NoSquirrels · 20/05/2018 22:10

for some people it is about changing their sexed body. Not about the accoutrements. For them the straight jacket is having a body that doesn't feel like them. Having a vagina feels more 'right' than having a penis. Having a face that people perceive as female rather than male feels more right, more like them

For some people. But for lots there is no 'body disphoria' - this is what we're told. That to medicalise it, to say bodies need to be changed, is not how the world is or should be now - in fact that's downright disciminatory and hateful to imply. To be trans you must just be accepted as female even if you have a penis and not a vagina.

pombear · 20/05/2018 22:13

I'm currently dealing with shit because I have not just a vagina but all the accompanying body parts that make me a female. Those bits all link up to that so-said vagina (to be honest, the vagina is the least of my worries right now, it's behaving itself compared to the other female organs!) If I just had a vagina, navigating normal life would be probably a lot simpler right now.

But yep, let's just swap 'penis' for 'vagina' as if that's the only thing that makes me a 'woman'!

Oh, and if you lined me up with MB now she's had her face shaved, some may say she's more feminine than me. Above-mentioned shit would tell you otherwise.

Transwomen , no matter how you try lo linguistically identify into our world, you will never really get it - the varied, nuanced world of woman depending on what our reproductive organs are doing right now, whether they're reproducing, not reproducing, not behaving, being removed due to cancer, being investigated due to infertility, doing what they're meant to depending on our age, etc.

Picassospaintbrush · 20/05/2018 22:44

twitter.com/ShoelessJoe1910/status/968262339567980544

Nail a woman's breasts to a table? Fine with Twitter.
Cane women until they bleed? Twitter permits those pics.
Beat a woman's vagina til it bleeds? Twitter is your platform.

But point out that women HAVE vaginas? Twitter will BAN YOU!!

Why, @jack?

Why is #TwitterSoSexist?

LaSqrrl · 21/05/2018 01:03

But for lots there is no 'body disphoria' - this is what we're told. That to medicalise it, to say bodies need to be changed, is not how the world is or should be now - in fact that's downright disciminatory and hateful to imply.

Correct. SelfID is about no more than saying those magic words "I am a woman". Magic, or rather deliberate gaslighting, has no place in the law.

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