Successful women... circle of confusion?

[Hamandcheesebaguette]

I'm not anywhere near as articulate as many of the posters on this board so I apologise if I can't quite articulate what I mean well.

I work in a male dominated environment... mid twenties... finally on a career path that I enjoy and want to succeed.

I am trying to take "inspiration" from women who have succeeded in similar industries who I know. And the running theme with them seems to be... they don't take any shit. If you're wrong, they'll call you out on it, if they disagree, they'll let you know... they'll sit in a board room full of high up men and fight their corner with "balls" So to speak.

Great - very good. I can do that. I'm not a wallflower and I'll fight (professionally) for what I believe in or what I know to be right.

However. The menfolk don't like this very much at all. They are genuinely affronted/offended/insulted when I professionally tell them the implications in my field of what they are trying to do and shut me down, talk over me, tell me my part in the meeting is done etc.

So how are you meant to progress as a strong businesswoman who doesn't take any shit and knows her business inside out if you won't ever progress bevause the menfolk will never promote you because they don't like a woman with a voice...

I'm not sure the best place to look in order to get to the top is always at the very top, at least to start with.
I think you need to look at the 'climbers'. How do they play it? I don't mean middle management, I mean people you see rapidly getting promoted. Those people in my field are ALWAYS the ridiculously positive ones, always open to change and innovation and will bust a gut to progress the ideas of their seniors - applies to males and females. FTSE 100 FMCG

Nobody really gets promotes at my place of work. Higher and middle management have all been there since the dawn of time and won't be going anywhere anytime soon so there isn't really any opportunities.

There's also a really strange attitude of not training the lower end staff to be able to move into the more senior positions eventually because the senior people feel threatened by the "dumb millenials" taking over.

Maybe it's just my place if work actually...

Nobody really gets promotes at my place of work. Higher and middle management have all been there since the dawn of time and won't be going anywhere anytime soon so there isn't really any opportunities.

Doesn’t like somewhere you can get on. I’d be looking for somewhere new.

I think it’s just your workplace! Well, not just yours but it doesn’t sound the right sort of place if you want to get on. I don’t know if I would aim to be like those women you see right at the top. I think you have to earn a certain amount of respect to get away with that sort of behaviour and I’m also not sure it’s the most productive. I’m at a fairly high level in my company, just under board level, and if i behaved like you described in a meeting everyone would be a bit miffed. I think there is a way to take no shit without being over forceful, though I completely accept in some workplaces this is impossible.

Think about where you want to be and then think about how you get there. As a PP said be enthusiastic,get involved with new projects, make suggestions, solve problems, be that person who gets shit done. Get involved with a women’s network, see if you can find someone who is in the sort of position you want and ask her about how she got there. I think a proactive attitude can carry you a long way, even if you perhaps don’t have quite the right skills at this moment in time.

Hello OP. Congratulations on finding a career you like and one that you seem to be excited and ambitious about.

Regarding your question about the best way to reach the top; it’s a really tricky line to toe. On the one hand, to be straightforward and uncompromising are common attributes that successful people have in corporate culture. In men, this is usually respected and leads to rising the ranks and being liked.

However, a woman behaving in exactly the same way often earns the reputation as difficult “a ball breaker” etc.

That said, a woman behaving in a quiet way can often be overlooked and seen as unambitious.

Cordelia Fine’s book Delusions of Gender has lots of scientific studies that show this time and time again.

Sheryl Sandberg’s book Lean In documents a way of behaving that’s somewhere in between being demure and being forceful. Being diligent about getting what you want but doing so in a way that isn’t construed as confrontational.

While from a purely feminist point of view, it seems unfair that women have to curb their personality to fit a sexist expectation of what people are comfortable with, however on an individual level, it can offer a way for women to rise to the top without bruising other people’s egos.

I’d recommend having a read. I have a few friends who have applied her advice in the companies they work at who have gained promotions and recognition (status as well as better pay) as a result.

However, whatever you do, I think it’s still important to find your own way and that you’re comfortable with. There’s no point in trying to replicate behaviour that feels awkward to you.

It's cognitive dissonance in action.
In my experience the women who are at the top don't tell it like it is. They are consummate political players (the men too but they seem to be able to get away with displaying their expertise in a way women don't)
Also it's in the patriarchies interests for some women to get promoted so the rest of us can feel that we are doing something wrong and if we could crack the magic ingredient we would do as well as the men. And so Sheryl Sandberg can flog books.
The whole thing totally pisses me off.

There is some evidence for what I say:
www.google.co.uk/amp/amp.timeinc.net/fortune/2014/08/26/performance-review-gender-bias

hbr.org/2016/04/research-vague-feedback-is-holding-women-back

The women in the boardroom with balls presumably worked with the men in the boardroom and there is a history of working together. The reality is in those situations, you as a newbie, do not see the undercurrents and subtext in those conversations. Woman with balls may be prepared to stand up to Man A but goes more softly with Man B or Woman B because the latter are more influential. I don't think it will be easy for any person, man or woman, to go into a boardroom guns blazing.

You will have to build up your profile in the company which will be unique to you, not whether you are a man or woman. It is much more difficult for women to be heard and recognised, that is for sure, especially after they have had children.

When companies do not promote from within you have to move from one company to another to get ahead. Scarier that speaking up in a meeting but if you stay there you are stuck.

I have found that being over 40 helps, which isn't much use to you at the moment!

I feel much more listened to, taken seriously and respected that I did when I was younger.

Another "age of invisibility" bonus.

FWIW my experience of management / leader types is what they SAY they are / do is VERY different to how they actually behave and what they actually do.

e.g. mine all claim to be great with people and really good people managers when in fact they are shit.

Most of seems to be down to confidence, an ability to focus to the point that you simply ignore anything that isn't going to advantage you directly (meet an agreed objective, be high visibility), and talk a good talk.

In my company, anyway.

Yes if you want to get on the trick is to move jobs every few years.

I think the women who get promoted tend to have powerful champions or mentors, who are prepared to back them and sing their praises to the board or other senior management outside of and in addition to the usual channels. I mean the big promotion.

This could be entirely on merit but there is also a certain element of luck and personalities clicking and being at the right place in the right time with the right skills. I agree that it is necessary to have consummate political skills or be such a big fee-earner/revenue generator that it speaks for itself - difficult without contacts, see above. Also, it will be more difficult in the current #metoo climate for a man to champion a woman as they might be more wary.

If you don't get promoted, don't hang around. Just take your experience and find a job at the next level up in another organisation. You might not be the right fit for one company but be on fire at another. Concentrate on getting the best experience you can and being professional and helpful to people at all levels, so as not to burn bridges as you snake your way up the totem pole.

People in senior posts in big corporations tend to be good at public speaking or getting their points across in meetings. It is how they get attention and respect of senior management.

Be twice as good as the men

Learn when to be the ball breaker and when to sit back - being able to make a good point in a meeting is a really key skill, including creating the chance to speak

Some very interesting points here to consider.

I think I've only recently begin to not see myself as a silky young girl and instead recognised that I am quite an intelligent, hard working woman who does have valuable ideas and knowledge.

It's also interesting about how certain characteristics in men are seen as desirable and often encouraged but in woman seen as aggressive and stand offish. So interesting

and if i behaved like you described in a meeting everyone would be a bit miffed. I think there is a way to take no shit without being over forceful, though I completely accept in some workplaces this is impossible

I agree. Your language and tone is quite aggressive. You would not impress me if you were talking in a business context about "not taking any shit"

The description of your organisation sounds very odd given you say there is no career progression. I also agree that looking at your contemporaries , both the plodders and the rising stars , and identify what one set is doing wrong and the other is doing right may be more instructive than trying to copy senior staff.

I think I've only recently begin to not see myself as a silky young girl and instead recognised that I am quite an intelligent, hard working woman who does have valuable ideas and knowledge

I don't think I ever thought of myself in a work capacity as "a silly young girl"

For quite a long time I thought of myself as vastly inexperienced compared to men and women who had been doing my job for 20/30 years before I started.

I'm a board director in a largish business. Some good advice here already from previous posters. I wish I'd realised in my mid-20s that to get to the top, you need people to like working with you as much as you need to be shit hot at the actual job (and the job itself should be developing constantly so this needs flexibility).

I do have moments of needing to deploy a "take no shit" attitude but these are very few and far between, and frankly only when I know I have the power to have the final say on a matter.

If you're interested, I'd recommend reading some books about how to iMovie your ability to influence. The all time classic is Dale Carnegie How to Win Friends and Influence People.. yes it's a bit cheesy! I bet you'd also learn a lot about yourself and how you're coming across to others if you got some really honest feedback from a wide range of different people across the organisation.

Also.. I might be way off here but can I gently suggest that when you're speaking up and being "shot down" by the men, maybe what you're contributing isn't that relevant to the broader discussion. If you're raising problems that are actually quite minor and solveable then I can understand them telling you that your contribution to the meeting is over.

@Hamandcheesebaguette remember it's not what you say it is the way you say it. Different people respond to how they you tell them something in different ways, so some people are fine if you say something blunt others are not, particularly if you a woman.

Be prepared to change companies every few years to get promoted. If you are offered the option to take on more responsibilities do, then if you don't get a pay rise move with the skills you have obtained. Ignore counter offers from your own company as you will end up leaving within a year.

If you have an opportunity to work abroad then do so as oddly after my stints abroad I've been able to get roles I wouldn't have been considered for in the UK before then.

tell me my part in the meeting is done etc

Take this as genuine feedback that you have a tendency to talk too long or unnecessarily. Get really good at making your point concisely and stopping. There's often some misogyny at play in men discerning that women talk too much, but making useful interjections and recognising when to stop is a useful skill (it took me a while to learn it - being more confident that I had got my point across first time helped)

This is a difficult one. There is misogyny. People don't even realise it.

If you are cut off when talking, keep talking till you have made your point.

Use different tones in your voice to get your point across. Softer when making a really good point to bring the conversation to climax. People then need to really listen to hear you. Be loud when making a joke. So that you come across as likeable...

One thing that has just occurred to me is that you may have speak in a lower pitch to get listened to.

I remember having it explained to me as a young teen by my sister* why women who wanted to be leaders like Thatcher had speech lessons to lower the pitch of their talking voice as women who speak in higher pitches aren't listened to particularly by men. It is clear misogyny which works more against younger females, who tend to speak in higher pitches.

*My sister wasn't impressed.

Very varied and generally good advice on the thread, I would agree with most (except Lass).

The advice is almost contradictory, but that is indeed the state of play for a woman moving up through the ranks! It really is a fine line sometimes, so really, you have to play each situation as it is to your best ability (which actually includes backing down sometimes), being shit hot at your job (the 'standard' is twice as good as any male). Your current work climate does sound stagnant at the top, so moving to another company is advisable, just stay long enough at your current job to 'look good on paper'.

There will be times you need to suck it up and bite your lip (true for most lower ranking employees of either sex really). You get more input as you move up. It is all a delicate line though.

The fundamental problem remains, you are working in a male dominated work environment with male dominated work ethos.

My best advice, is once you have risen through those ranks, to whatever level, by your mid-40s you will probably need to become self-employed in the field. Because by 50, most women find it very difficult to find another job, even with 'all that experience'. It's a shocker, but ageism for women, kicks in around the 50 mark (and 60-65 for men), therein lies the difference. With all the governments now pushing for 'later retirement ages', the problem is greater, not less.

If I had a do-over, I would have made many different choices in my life.

Interesting perspective lasqrl.

Can u explain more on what you would have done differently?

They are genuinely affronted/offended/insulted when I professionally tell them the implications in my field of what they are trying to do and shut me down, talk over me, tell me my part in the meeting is done etc.

I'm afraid the old cliché is true. If you tell a man that you have A Great Plan, he will shoot you down in flames. Mention it in passing and leave it to stew for a week then the man will announce that he has hatched A Great Plan.
Rather than confronting your boss or colleagues in a meeting try planting the seed a week before, with someone higher up. When you raise the matter, big-boss will agree with you and back you up.

Also, be wary of taking too much notice of what senior females (or males) did to get to the top a generation ago. That was then, this is now.