Successful women... circle of confusion?

[Hamandcheesebaguette]

I'm not anywhere near as articulate as many of the posters on this board so I apologise if I can't quite articulate what I mean well.

I work in a male dominated environment... mid twenties... finally on a career path that I enjoy and want to succeed.

I am trying to take "inspiration" from women who have succeeded in similar industries who I know. And the running theme with them seems to be... they don't take any shit. If you're wrong, they'll call you out on it, if they disagree, they'll let you know... they'll sit in a board room full of high up men and fight their corner with "balls" So to speak.

Great - very good. I can do that. I'm not a wallflower and I'll fight (professionally) for what I believe in or what I know to be right.

However. The menfolk don't like this very much at all. They are genuinely affronted/offended/insulted when I professionally tell them the implications in my field of what they are trying to do and shut me down, talk over me, tell me my part in the meeting is done etc.

So how are you meant to progress as a strong businesswoman who doesn't take any shit and knows her business inside out if you won't ever progress bevause the menfolk will never promote you because they don't like a woman with a voice...

I’d second Lasqrl ‘s advice about setting up on your own (if that’s a possibility in your type of job)
It means all your work is being invested into your own future, you get to dictate how fast you progress, how much money you earn, how much you work.

Obviously this applies to both sexes but once you get pregnant and then after you have a child, bring your own boss really becomes brilliant. Flexible working, more money (as you’re invoicing directly to a client not being paid a salary), no fear of not being seen as uncommitted as you’re not limited by a rigid culture of presenteeism that values time spent in the office over actual work produced

I've worked in the IT sector (male dominated anyway) for guided weapons and gambling for 20+ years. My tips (assuming you're very good at whatever you do) would be:

1. Watch how those who are successful behave and follow suit. Take inspiration from success, for your career purposes it doesn't matter if they are men or women.
2. Know when to get tough. Don't take stuff lying down, but don't raise arguments for the sake of showing you "have balls". Productive working wins over confrontational working every time.
3. Build "history" that you can rely on with everyone that you work with via socialising, working productively etc.
4. Success won't come overnight, it'll be the work of years. Network in your industry.
5. Everything you do should have a value to your CV.
6. Politics is very important, as is understanding who is important to whom.
7. Hone the ability to cut to the chase of an issue and be succint, no one wants to sit through a long explanation.
8. Present how to solve things with options and relevant costs to get things done. i.e. don't just state the problem.
9. Be very meticulous in all details on projects you work on, meetings, notes, diary etc. and never miss a thing. Over time people notice this.

10. Never gossip and don't make drama. Keep everything about facts not feelings. Anticipate difficult questions and prepare answers before you need them. Back up yourself up with data.

Very varied and generally good advice on the thread, I would agree with most (except Lass)

Yes what would I know- actually being successful in a male dominated industry.

The OP gives an impression she doesn't particularly like her senior colleagues or her work place that much or has much respect for them. She speaks quite disparagingly of it.

I don't get the sense of a buy- in to it . She doesn't have to of course but generally any one looking for promotion will need that -what can they do for the business- not just what will they get out of it.

I have not said anything which contradicts most of the other advice. Several posters have picked up on her attitude and her automatic assumption that she isn't going forward just because she is a woman.

LaSqrll Interesting perspective about working towards self-employment in later years. My dh is self-employed and I can see him working until he decides not to, whereas as an employee, I am limited to being attractive to companies, which gets increasingly difficult with age.

To that, I will say 2 things:

• Women get a second career wind from about mid-40s up when their children are older and they are clearly less of child bearing age, both from the fact that they have more time to invest in their career and from an employer's perspective (discriminatory, of course, but let's face it, it's there), they are past child bearing and serial maternity leaves. As another poster mentioned, there is also the gravitas with being an older woman and less friction with sexual attraction and stereotyping getting in the way of interactions with male colleagues (who need to grow up).

• With age discrimination laws, you don't have to put any age on your CV. At my ripe seniority, I automatically lop the first 10 years off my CV and linkedin. I don't put the year on when I got my qualifications. If you turn up for interviews looking professional and groomed, there is a chance no one will be the wiser which side of 50 you are on ...

This has got me thinking about what self-employed consultancy work I could do when I want to wind down into retirement.

whereas as an employee, I am limited to being attractive to companies, which gets increasingly difficult with age.

That is the reason for own business/consulting. Even lopping off a number of jobs, being 'creative' by omitting dates, still incredibly difficult.

I've had several training courses which all pretty much say the same thing - use I rather than you. Don't say you are wrong, say I feel there is a better solution.

The point has also recently been made, are you being shouted down because you're a woman or because you're in a support role? The head of HR is at the boardroom table but they're unlikely to be making critical business decisions.

Depends how you define success Op. I work for a Dow Jones top 10. All leadership come through the corporate leadership scheme. They are all political, forever positive, emotionless drones. Who work 80 plus hours a week. I once met a senior director level person who was proud to tell me he was the only person on his level or above who was still married.
@Bluejava’s list has all the salient points. Just be aware what “success” means?

oh god, the planting the seed thing reminded me of a super successful female colleague. she was slightly Machiavellian but by god did it work. she told me, never ever go into a meeting and declare things without first having aligned the majority of the room, and definitely your boss if he is there. never surprise your boss in public or embarrass, or put them on the spot. Do not fall into the trap of becoming the person who is the 'work wife', who organises functions, makes teas, brings biscuits, sets up meeting rooms. just like at home, it saps energy and will not lead to promotion or even respect. Don't be bolshy if your boss asks, but if you are busy with something with a deadline and can't organise recruitment events, tell them so. Certainly do not volunteer for that stuff, it gets you nowhere. Avoid sitting near doors in meetings so you are not the one who has to get chairs/water.
It is a fucking minefield.

Concur with set up on your own when older . Flexible with kids. Can be extremely lucrative. No office politics just you doing the work for the clients and all the fees are yours.

Blueshoes read "how hard can it be" by Allison Pearson. 50 something pretends to be 42 to get her old City job back. Made me laugh anyway!

I work in mining and i see the same thing.
I have, as a low tier employee, told my CEO to his face that he was wrong about a plan of action. I have found that there are two distict types of men in my industry, and they tend to gather in seperate companies or seperate areas of the company.

There are the 'yesmen' who manipulate and kowtow to the higher ups, steal credit and take no firm stance at all. Yesmen prefer the company of other yesmen and promote and hire yesmen. They will hate you for opposing their ideas or standing up for yourself and no matter how much boot you lick you will not get ahead as a woman.

Then there are men with integrity. Those ones will respect you for pointing out things theyve missed and where theyre wrong because they understand its not about point scoring its about helping eachother and getting the job done. They will respect you for having the 'balls' to back yourself up when you know youre right. They tend to find a reason to get rid of any yesmen who turn up around them and the yesmen are in no hurry to stay because their manipulations do not benefit them.

I dont know about your industry but people tend to move around a bit in mine and you will find people and companies who value you.

Of course, i was never trying to "climb the ladder" or "play the game" i only want to increase my technical skills so your milage may vary. Its a really easy choice for me between standing in my integrity 100% or playing someone elses game. It might not be so easy for you.

Some people probably think i shouldn't have told my ceo he was wrong. I should have 'been nice' and just let it pass. I remember the situation - there was my ceo, a higher up technical staff who was a total yesman, the mine manager who was recent to the company, me and a coworker of my same level all standing around a table discussing a problem.

Ceo: i think we should try X strategy here
Yesman: i also think that. What a brilliant idea. No one has every been more right than you are.
Me: We already tried X when we first opened the site years ago and it didnt work because of Y. Thats why we started using this other system in the first place.
Ceo: ok but i think X might work better now. Its a different situation.
Yesman: i also think so. Its a different situation. You have lovely eyes sir.
Me: its not actually different, really. It has the same Y characteristics as last time. I can dig out the paperwork and go through it with you but lets not waste time and money repeating past mistakes.

Went round and round like that for a few minutes. I think they ended up not doing it and we went with a different solution. I think i used the exact words "no, youre wrong," at one point followed by an explanation of why. I remember it because it was one of the first times i grew a pair of ovaries and backed myself, because it was the first time i realised that i DID know as much or more about this topic than everyone else at the table, and also because there was this weird mini-pause after every time i spoke when the other 4 of them would look at me all at the same time. I don't know if they were surprised or annoyed or trying to find fault or what, but it was like I could almost see them recalibrating.
Two key things are that i presented my case firmly and confidently but without ever 'attacking' anyone elses ideas and if he said "its my decision we're doing x" i would have said ok and done my best to help. The second thing is that my mine manager (who is the one who is actually the boss on the site) told me later when he was leaving the company that he was impressed and i should look him up if i wanted a job.

It might also be different in mining because we're all generally more concerned about the thing not collapsing on our heads than about who gets credit for what.

You know what you know.
Have the courage to back your own opinion.
Dont compromise.
Keep blazing that trail for our daughters.

Bloodmagic, nice story. It seems very dependent on the higher tier person you are telling they are wrong.
Some people do not want criticism, likely more so from women, but usually from anyone.
Some are more amenable to input from lower downs.
It is a minefield really.
One thing I have noticed is that most (but not all) of the really successful women (and a lot the men) I have encountered, have not had this bolshy, confrontational, arrogant style.
And every 20-odd year old who has tried to adopt this style to get ahead (mostly young lads) has either been laughed at, disliked, but ultimately unsuccessful.

@deydododatdodontdeydo

It seems very dependent on the higher tier person you are telling they are wrong.

My point was that while the person I was disagreeing with may have not liked it, the other people around me respected and appreciated it.

There's bit difference between arrogance and simply knowing what you know and contributing it without hesitation or qualification.

About age, I do plan to stay in employment until I am 62. I am aware that it will get increasingly harder for me to find another employer if I suddenly get made redundant or my company decides to shutter.

Hence it is not just about tweaking dates and career history on CVs. It is also about updating my skills and ensuring I continue to climb the skills or corporate ladder rather than coast, so that if I interview, I get hired by more senior management, rather than a middle manager in their 30s who would not want a 40/50+ person reporting to them. I have also began to change jobs every 3+ years to keep an ear to the ground as to my market value and avoid my CV getting stale.

I agree window dressing the CV is not enough. There is also the need to cultivate relevant experience, which applies not just to middle-aged women but all employees. My point about tweaking the CV was to increase my chances of treated on equal terms with other applicants with similar experience, and not letting my age be a distraction. I did not mean to make it sound so easy. It isn't.

What did you end up deciding to do OP?

I have decided to look for new job ASAP.

I realise my OP came across and I have an aggressive bolshy attitude, but I don't - and certainly not in team meetings or management meetings. I always try to make my point eloquently and only when I know 100% what I am talking about that certain that I am right.

My CEO told me the other day that I was speaking waffle regarding GDPR and was no longer welcome on the GDPR implementation team.

I AM the only person in that business that had spent months researching and interpreting the GDPR legislation (not a large enough company to have a legal or IT team) and would consider myself very knowledgeable and probably the most knowledgeable in the business on this subject.

As such, he didn't like what the legislation meant and not the implementation team is all men who have no done research/courses/seminars etc and clearly I am not valued.

So time to move on...

Sounds like a sensible decision. Always best to on the look out for places that may be a better fit.

The only other advice I’d give would be to settle somewhere for at least 3 years. While it is good to move from place to place to get the best experience, after a while once you find somewhere which is good (not necessarily perfect), it’s worthwhile to stick with it so you get really adept at it. I found that I learnt so much in the last place I worked before setting up my own company as I stuck with it. There were lots of difficult people there but I tried to avoid confrontational situations and just got on with the job which I loved.
The slog I put in there allowed me to understand lots of things about my industry beyond my official role in the company. That knowledge and experience provided me with the skills and confidence to set up on my own.

I guess this is a long way of saying that if you know what your end goal is, you can make decisions about how to get there and even if the route has difficulties at times, stick at it and you’ll get there.