Gender Critical Science

[Terfulike]

We are hoping to ascertain interest in gender critical science discussions and activities. Please let us know here or via pm if you are scientifically or medically trained and wish to join our discussions and /or activities.

Not a scientist but a concerned parent and very heartened to see this happening.

4thwavenow has a good, research section here

4thwavenow.com/research/

I can probably put you in touch with the compiler if that would be helpful

Thank you Stark that would be useful

Though a good systematic review should go some way towards addressing cherry picking issues, there are other biases built into the scientific process - positive publication bias for example, where studies with positive results are much more likely to be published rather than end up in the bottom of a drawer for a start. I think it's really important as scientists to be aware of our own biases and the human tendency to concentrate on evidence that agrees with our preconceived ideas/hypotheses.

Sorry, meant to say first, I have a scientific background and am also interested in being involved. Though limited time.

Should have said, I don't think I'll be able to contribute but good luck with this.

I think this is important way beyond the trans-agenda.

Thank you Perking will be in touch Acorn

I think you may have already contacted me but I’d be interested. My time is a bit limited at the moment and I will be having a baby soon, but keep me in the loop.

Scientist, ex academia, now working in clinical trials. Background in genetics and human developmental pathways (development, cancer etc.) basically I’ve worked across development, genetics, oncology and some psychiatry (trial involvement rather than primary research involvement in the last one)

My strength is probably collating a shit ton of info and packaging it into summaries anyone can understand. Currently only limited academic library access due to work (no more Athens login, boo!)

I have no idea how reddit works and I’m keen to keep my anonymity

Can I ask the group to make a precis of each item in plain English for us non scientists?

Great stuff Bowlof. Very useful and relevant experience. I think Upstart crow would also appreciate your precis skills!

Oldman, I'm going to pop over to reddit and pm you now.
Not entirely a qualified scientist yet, but on the way to it (vague...) and hoping I can contribute in some way :)

After this was raised on another thread, I think it might be helpful if you define what you mean by "gender critical", OP.

Otherwise people may come into the group with drastically different meanings and be disappointed to find themselves working at cross-purposes with each other.

If you start with a definition, people can state where they stand in relation to it, and say if they're working on a different tack. Should lessen confusion.

I have nothing of use to add and no skill to contribute but I just want to say how happy this thread makes me. It's wonderful.

Great idea, especiallygiven the attempt to assert 'scientific' data from brain scans into the MB documentary last night. Nothing expert to offer you though but good luck.

PerkingFaintly
After this was raised on another thread, I think it might be helpful if you define what you mean by "gender critical, OP'

This is an incomplete first draft and I would welcome comments and suggestions:

My personal take on this is that gender critical science relies on the following basic assumptions:

That the meaning of "man" is adult human male as ascertained by unambiguous biological sexing and/or the detection of exactly two sex chromosomes in somatic cells: one X and one Y chromosome;

That the meaning of "woman" is adult human female as ascertained by unambiguous biological sexing and/or the detection of exactly two sex chromosomes in somatic cells, both of which are X chromosomes;

That the existence of intersex conditions is compatible with a sexually dimorphic human species;

That prescribed male and female gender roles vary according to historical period and geopolitical and social groups;

That this, together with a lack of scientific evidence to the contrary, makes the model of gender as a social construct compelling;

That features of biological sex and sex roles transcend historical periods, and geopolitical and social groups.

That trans-identified males often exhibit features characteristic of the prescribed gender role of their female contempories;

That trans-identified females often exhibit features characteristic of the prescribed gender role of their male contempories;

That adult trans-identified males are unable to display features characteristic of the observed sex and sexual role of females
without medical intervention;

That adult trans-identified females are unable to display features characteristic of the observed sex and sexual role of males
without medical intervention;

That trans critical science should seek to clarify biological differences and similarities between the two human biological sexes.

I have created a Wordpress site gendercriticalscience.com as I was unable to make a reddit due to my lack of history on the site

I am hoping to get back to everyone who expressed an interest in taking part soon so we can all start contributing.

Many thanks to all for your enthusiasm!

Gosh, that's very thorough.

I hope I haven't burdened you with an additional nit-picky task, btw. I just think clarity early on may prevent confusion later.

no problem.
I think you are absolutely right, and it helped me clarify my ideas.
It will come in handy I'm sure.

Nothing helpful to bring to the party except gratefulness. It’s a brilliant thing to do to help to point more of us to fact-based evidence in our gender critical political thinking and advocacy. This is so important in a debate which uses lobby-spun unproven scientific or medical claims, anecdata or just makes up stuff. TGLWGH and all that.

It’s great to see scientists, medics and researchers of all kinds coming together on this. your voice is so powerful with your professional peers. Your voice is also powerful with others of us not who are scientifically literate but are very anxious to have public policy, the law and political argument informed by evidence and reality.

I would love to put in some early bids now for any fact-checking myth-busting activity you might undertake about claims made. I’m particularly concerned to understand more about the effects of off label drugs used as ‘puberty blockers’ and how harmful (or just not well evidenced) their long term effects may be. It seems they are presented as just a risk-neutral option to ‘buy time’ when medically they surely have to be doing something very powerful to the child’s developing body.

Also, I would like to understand more about the objective balance of risks: there is an argument used against an approach to young people’s care (beyond psychological support) of watchful waiting over time (ie not proceeding quickly to hormones and surgeries). The argument goes that there is an increased suicide risk if an ‘affirmative’ ie medicalised approach is not started very quickly. What is the evidence behind this?

Anything and everything you can produce for a lay audience will be brilliant though. Thanks!

Couple of comments on the "definition of gender critical" post.

Last line refers to "trans critical science". Is that intentional or a typo for "gender critical science"?

I think it might need some amending from the line
That trans-identified males often exhibit features characteristic of the prescribed gender role of their female contempories
onward.

It's not clear whether the current version is referring to physical attributes or behaviour. And re the subsequent lines, I'm sitting here stroking my old lady beard and thinking "if only" about being unable to display features characteristic of the observed sex without medical intervention.

I don't know if you want to leave those out or tighten them up.

and/or the detection of exactly two sex chromosomes in somatic cells: one X and one Y chromosome;

Take that bit out - the exactly two part ? Sex chromosome trisomies (and higher) are not hugely uncommon. You can have an XYY Male for example (often associated with increases in violent and impulsive behaviour and overrepresented in the prison population.) you’d not be able to tell by looking.
Similarly XXY (Klinefelters) and a few other permutations occur and again you can’t always tell.

I’d replace with ‘normally XX in females and normally XY in males, ie homozygous for X chromosomes in the female and having a Y chromosome in the Male. Sex chromosome trisomies and higher occur but do not change the fact that a person possessing a functional Y chromosome is a male.’

I’ll have a think to see if there’s a more definite and accepted chromosomal definition this weekend.

Other topics I know are often ‘scienced up’ by TRAs would include:

Puberty blockers - there’s a assumption that these are harmless and they are not
The fMRI studies on pink brain blue brain (I’m not a neuroscientist but the specific study was critiqued very well by someone on here who is - if you google fMRI I think the thread will come up.)
Affirmative treatment vs wait and see and..
Desistence rates in trans children
Cross sex hormone effects in adults (not really a thing to get mad about as adults can consent) and in minors (definitely not OK.)
Gender dysphoria - it is a real and serious condition and needs to be differentiated from AGP type activity.

I also think there needs to be very careful emphasis on child safeguarding and careful reiteration that transpeople as a class exist and do require the rights (that they already have in law.) impartiality/factualness is key and we cannot be accused of being anti trans - this has to be purely a pro science pro fact, pro woman, pro child safety viewpoint. I’m sure that goes without saying anyway.

Thank you for doing this.

Puberty blockers - there’s a assumption that these are harmless and they are not

In particular what I've seen TRAs say is that these have been in use for years and are proven safe. Yes - for cases of precocious puberty which is what they were developed for. E.g. delaying a child of 7 years old from starting puberty. There are no longitudinal studies of the effects of using them to delay natural puberty for prolonged periods of time. Nor could there be as this is a very new practice.

Maybe a section with responses to common TRA arguments like the above could be good.

By the way, you say you have no experience with Reddit. I did create that subreddit and wiki that you can use if you message me on Reddit. (OldmanOfTheWeb). But if not wanted, that's fine.

I’m interested but not sure about your starting point of ‘gender critical science’. I think ‘science’ should be enough on its own as we should start from an unbiased position and look at the evidence.

Chatty
thanks for your support

Perking faintly

Gender critical
It was a typo

Prescribed gender role
I was referring to behaviours (gender role) and to modified physical features (eg shaving, vaginoplasty)

FeatFeatures of the opposite sex
I considered exactly what you describe as I wrote it. A more detailed version would include reference to the distinctly overlapping normal distributions of certain features (eg height, facial hair; therefore less useful to distinguishing sexes) versus distinctly bimodal ones (eg length of penis/criteria and therefore more useful)

Clitoris