Finding/ starting radfem groups

[Merchfach]

I'm just back from a long weekend away with a group of women, most of whom would call themselves feminists, whom I've known for several years. I didn't see Genderquake so when some of the younger women (30s) started talking about it I stayed out of the generally pro-trans conversation until one of them said that Germaine Greer ought to be silenced. I piped up to say that she held a valid point of view that represented many women and that I found it worrying to hear women trying to silence other women. One of the younger ones said: 'You'll be saying transwomen aren't women next' and I agreed that I would. It was downhill from there. At some point I was accused of misgendering someone and two young women walked out shouting that I was hateful and should be ashamed of myself. I asked a third party to mediate so that we could see if we had any common ground that we could build from and was told the young women would not discuss this subject with me. So, no debate. There's a surprise!

Most of the other women don't understand why what I said was so offensive but assume I must have said something dreadful to warrant such a response from educated and on the whole pleasant young women. I don't imagine I'll be invited to participate in this group again which saddens me.

I don't feel bad for saying what I think but I do feel battered and there's a tiny part of me wondering whether I've got this all wrong. I know I'll bounce back and there are a couple of people I'm in touch with on line who'll help me do that. But what I could really do with now is a local radfem group: women whom I could meet up with for some eye contact and a coffee and a reassurance that I'm not the nazi dinosaur the handmaidens say I am.

I've googled for radical feminist groups in my area and found nothing. There's a feminist group at a university some distance away but I have a suspicion that it'll be full of handmaidens. If you're a member of a real rather than virtual group, how did you find each other? What should I google for? Any ideas on how to start something up?

Sorry to hear how that went down Merch. Many (but not all) of the younger women have slurped up that Kool Aid.

About ten years ago, there was a strong blogging 'network' of radfems, a few message boards, etc. That was our main connection. I think you can still find a lot of networking at facebook, but the org is woman-hating, and many radfems are getting pissy with the platform.

Some of us do have the 'tech' to start boards. It is clearly time we did again (blogging is hard slog really).

Like here, we have to 'correctly pronoun' the likes of a double-girl-murderer. It's insane. Radfems will hang out here for as long as we can, to shed some reality of the situation, but beyond that, no, we are not masochists.

Merchfach wrote - "What should I google for?"

I suggest searching for gender-critical as well as radfem/radical feminist.

I would really love to be part of such a group. I feel a bit isolated IRL because I have a sister who (despite being gay!) has drink the Kool aid entirely. It is unmentionable in my family and my friends think I’m bonkers for worrying about something which they can’t imagine happening. If you want to PM me a rough location OP I would be very happy to meet up if we’re anywhere near each other!

Ditto
I'd be in and happy to PM my location :)

Me too.

Merchfach

Handmaidens

I actually agree with your stance on the unquestioning acceptance of the trans narrative.

However, the fact you use an insult to casually describe every woman who doesn't agree with you, says to me there might have been something in the tone or nature of the discussion that put these other people off, rather than the subject matter specifically.

Not being goady, just suggesting you might review again your conversation with these women and put yourself in their postition to see if you came across as well as you would have liked?

Badger, I'm fairly new to Mumsnet and not sure about messaging, but I'm in west Wales. I know a few people who I think are on a similar wavelength to me but after what happened at the weekend I'm feeling quite cautious about sounding them out. The explosion of absolute fury when I dared venture my pov was extraordinary.

One of the things they mentioned was the high rate of suicide among trans people. I asked them where they got their statistics from and whether the data took into account those with co-existing mental health issues and they side-stepped it. If anyone can point me in the direction of some definitive stats about trans suicide rates I would appreciate it. I imagine this kind of thing is likely to happen again and so forewarned is forearmed.

Well my, how graced am I, Patriarchy Personified, that you agree with even a part of what I wrote.

You are being goady. Off with you.

What you mean calling someone a handmaiden is an insult?

Really?

Merch

There might have been something in the tone or nature of the discussion that put these other people off, rather than the subject matter specifically.

You are being goady. Off with you

Like this for example.

I asked them where they got their statistics from and whether the data took into account those with co-existing mental health issues and they side-stepped it.

I started to look into these and they don't hold water - other things took priority but from what I discovered, none of the research is of clinical / professional standards and is all based on online surveys - so the suicide stat quoted is actually people saying they have had suicidal thoughts - not that they had attempted suicide - big difference as many survivors can attest to. I would love someone to debunk the stats - I want to do it but am time poor and don't have the credentials - would be better coming from someone who conducts research professionally.

It sucks this happened to you.

I haven't managed to locate radfems where I am in real life - happy to consider Skype group or something like that. I am a member of some private FB groups - but I loathe the platform tbh.

I have set up a private reddit group that's open to regulars with post histories - but it hasn't taken off - no worries - it's there if we need it - guess we all like the company here!!

"You are being goady. Off with you"

I thought "Off with you" was quite nice. Have you got a Welsh accent? Because you can say "off with you" to me with a Welsh accent any time

Merchfach

The Gender Identity Development Service (Tavistock) have only seen one suicide in the last decade. They work with young people up to the age of 25. I archived the link as they have a habit of removing the info - I think the page now just says suicide is extremely rare.
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20171207032817/gids.nhs.uk/evidence-base" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20171207032817/gids.nhs.uk/evidence-base

There was another young girl's suicide reported a few months ago, Leo?, whose mother had recently died - but presumably she was not a patient of GIDS at the time.

As far as I know, no-one is actively collating trans suicide statistics. Miranda Yardley requested research in this area in his submission to Maria Miller's committee:
mirandayardley.com/en/written-submission-to-the-transgender-equality-inquiry/

The 'studies' done by Stonewall and other pro-trans groups are highly flawed - you'll find lots of detail about this on transgendertrend.com.

Terribly sorry, PP. Didn't realise I had to be nice and lovely all the time. What a disgrace to womanhood I am, eh? Of course, it was all my fault and I could have handled the whole thing better.

There, do you feel better now?

also sorry to hear this happened. I'm cringing at the idea of you gradually realising they were angry with you whilst having to count down the hours till you could get away.

reminds of a time I went on a mountain walk and at one point failed to praise someone's dogs quickly enough and the owners rounded on me and started some kind of weird justification of their dogs' behaviour. I remember looking down the mountain and the distance from home was just so.....long....so....very.....long.....

never go on a long weekend with anyone who hasn't made a vow to live with you is my advice.

Betsy, thank you. So there is no evidence to support the assertion that hundreds of trans people have been driven to suicide in the last decade by victimisation, violence and aggression?

I'm going to forward the GIDS link to the person who said that and ask her to show me where she obtained her statistics. In the nicest possible way, of course.

I'd love to find a real life feminist group. I think my only criterion would be the ability to discuss anything in a sensible, mature manner.

I'm sure this kind of thing is happening to many of us. It must be hard if you're close to your family and they are closed to your pov.

In a strange way the complete fury of the response is reassuring because surely, if there was a real case to be made for self ID, or a good case for arguing that a man could become a woman, they would argue it. And if they argued it well enough I could be persuaded.

Anyway, thanks for the kind words and good to know others feel the same way.

Here's the link from transgendertrend debunking the suicide info from trans groups:
www.transgendertrend.com/the-suicide-myth/

Don’t worry, PP’s here to mansplain......... Have a cookie, PatriarchyPersonified!.

Where would we be without the menz, eh?

Thx for those links re stats BetsyM00

I’d be up for a RL group too. I’m in a town with a big LGBT and student population so most groups are lib fem and don’t take kindly to GC views.

Bertrand hello, it's good to hear from you as well. (I'm aware you are beings arcastic, but I'm not)

The suicide stats thing is a big bone of contention for me. I actually had it quoted at me in real life not so long ago by a relatively high profile trans-women (she has been in the papers, is a spokeswomen etc). I didn't really challenge her, just asked where the figures came from as they seemed very extreme. It was as if I had stolen her presents at Christmas. Cut me dead from the discussion and then refused to speak to me after the event. I think she would have made an even bigger scene if we weren't in a professional environment.

PP may I just ask are you a man (not sure I am following)?