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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Just had equality training in work - help me

28 replies

Berthatydfil · 14/05/2018 13:28

Trainer stated the 9 protected characteristics inc sex (which was referred to gender) and gender reassigment which was said to include anyone stating on transition.
They also helpfully offered to forward on stonewalls guidance on trans issues.

I was in a work environment so sat on my hands which was so difficult.

Just wanted to share really but if there is any good neutral info available would welcome links.

OP posts:

crispbuttyfan · 14/05/2018 13:37

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Bi11yOneMate · 14/05/2018 13:40

I don't often agree with crispbuttyfan, but I don't know what information you were given that you feel was incorrect?

Bombardier25966 · 14/05/2018 13:46

@crispbuttyfan is spot on.

What info are you looking for OP, did you believe the trainer's interpretation of the law (and common decency) was incorrect?

Fifi5000 · 14/05/2018 13:46

The main thing is to make sure they’re aware that the protected characteristic is ‘sex’, not ‘gender ‘. You can direct them to the Equality Act for the correct wording.

Sarahconnor1 · 14/05/2018 13:50

Well the op says they referred to sex as gender, so there is one inaccuracy. The equality act is clear that it's sex that is the protected characteristic alongside gender reassignment, age, sexual orientation etc. Also if I recall stonewalls definition of trans is such a wide scope now that I (and many others) could define myself trans, which does a huge disservice to the experience of those that have gone through a transition

Aftershock15 · 14/05/2018 13:58

Yes point out that the sex and gender usage is just wrong. I’ve done this before and got them to amend the wording of the equality policy. I think (hope) it was just a language error rather than malicious.

The gender reassignment thing is the correct interpretation I believe. It’s this bit that some people want changed to gender identity which I guess is more truthful for people starting the process.

It’s when sex and gender are used interchangeably that problems arise I think. So I’m happy to respect someone’s gender identity so long as they are happy to respect that I don’t have one - I am identified by my sex. There are certain circumstances where I believe sex should be the discriminating factor and in these cases sex trumps gender identity. In others it does matter.

RatRolyPoly · 14/05/2018 14:02

crispbutty you made me smile!

But yeah, sex not gender. Not got much else to go on from the OP.

BossWitch · 14/05/2018 14:03

I had to sit through an assembly at my school on protected characteristics - the slides were from stonewall which was a bit of a concern for me considering their stance on trans - but all the way through sex was referred to as gender. I think there's this reluctance to say the word "sex". Drives me mad!

Sarahconnor1 · 14/05/2018 14:07

I think the use of gender rather than sex is deliberate. All you have to do is cut and paste from the law, it's not hard. Yet sex curiously is the one characteristic most frequently misrepresented. Muddying the waters.

Aftershock15 · 14/05/2018 14:16

Oh yes I think people like Stonewall are doing this deliberately, as you say how hard is it to copy the list from the equality’s act. In some circumstances it really is just mindless mix up because sex is seen as less 'refined' than gender. If they back down without a fight and make the change then it’s more likely just an admin error, without thinking/understanding the consequences.

Sarahconnor1 · 14/05/2018 14:24

Stonewall as an organisation uses the law and lobbies very successfully to have the law changed, and has done for many years. They know this stuff inside out and absolutely know what the legal wording is, so if they are producing presentations or guidance which replace gender with sex it is deliberate.

I agree in other circumstances it might be a thoughtless mix up, but words have meanings and it really matters that this is correct, especially when people are quoting law. It shouldn't go unchallenged and this can be done in a non confrontational way.

Ereshkigal · 14/05/2018 14:32

The main thing is to make sure they’re aware that the protected characteristic is ‘sex’, not ‘gender ‘. You can direct them to the Equality Act for the correct wording.

Yes. It's important as people will conflate with gender identity which is incorrect. Only trans identified males with a GRC would (I think?) be able to make a legal claim with sex as a protected characteristic.

ToeToToe · 14/05/2018 14:47

What Sarahconnor1 said. All of it.

Namesallgone18 · 14/05/2018 17:15

I’ve had the gender/sex thing. I helpfully pointed out that sex was the correct term, and was told I was wrong!

LizzieSiddal · 14/05/2018 17:20

I was listening to Women’s hour this morning and Jane Garvey said “Gender” twice, when she actually meant “sex”. It makes me so angry.

Sarahconnor1 · 14/05/2018 17:24

Namesallgone18 I don't think I could help myself, I would helpfully get a copy of the actual law and show it to them in the break or email it later.

It sounds like a minor irritant but this switching of terminology is really important because it undermines sex based exemptions as allowed by law.

OldCrone · 14/05/2018 17:45

The problem is, we have laws with this wording:

Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman).

From the Gender Recognition Act
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/9

But the Equality Act 2010 is clear - the protected characteristic is sex, not gender.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/4

Pratchet · 14/05/2018 18:10

I think the OP is looking for guidance such as, does she have to pretend to believe this bullcrap

Ereshkigal · 14/05/2018 18:13

Sadly I think she will.

Picassospaintbrush · 14/05/2018 18:17

Crisp swoops down on a morsel from nowhere ready to snatch the words out of our mouths.

You can have today's seagull award goo.gl/images/mwCdVG

Sarahconnor1 · 14/05/2018 18:19

Pratchet, well, belief is also a protected characteristic. Belief must be genuinely held and more than an opinion. It must be cogent, serious and apply to an important aspect of human life or behaviour.

Would be interesting to see how that plays out re beliefs concerning being gender critical and/or pro maintaining sex segrated spaces etc, not that I'm volunteering to test it!

Wirelessmouse · 14/05/2018 18:59

Why not put in place protection from bullying or harassment for anyone because of their gender presentation/ identity/ expression.
Whilst keeping sex as a protected characteristic.

it is shameful to ridicule anyone because they don't conform to sex stereotypes. If we could achieve that then the rest falls away, surely?

Ereshkigal · 14/05/2018 19:00

Crisp swoops down on a morsel from nowhere ready to snatch the words out of our mouths.

A discarded chunk of butty.

crispbuttyfan · 14/05/2018 19:33

The equality act specifies clearly a GRC is NOT required to be covered under gender reassignment.
And to clarify some of the reasoning, someone can be 'diagnosed', post-op, and jump through most hoops, and yet not apply for a GRC.

Any step towards transition is accepted under the protections.

KennDodd · 14/05/2018 19:48

I think the main reason people say gender when they should be saying sex if just silly British embarrassment. If the word sex only had one meaning, and didn't also mean the act of sex we'd have much less of a problem.

I went to some equality training a while ago all about trans people, conducted by a trans women. Just about the first question she asked was if everybody knew the difference between gender and sex. I answered that sex was a biological fact and gender a social construct, she didn't disagree and moved straight on.

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