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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transphobia or truths?

999 replies

TwittleBee · 11/05/2018 22:08

Hi there!

First, apologise if this has been really over discussed already.

I'm pretty new to the whole self ID and trans issues and pretty shocked to discover I'm probably classed as a "Radical" feminist.

How comes it's seen as transphobia when women talk about women's rights or sex or gender?

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I haven't seen anything i would class as transphobic on MN yet? Just a lot of feminists discussing their concerns for women and girls' rights?

Looking for answers so I can see both points of view but also so I can attempt to understand what is going on here.

Thanks x

OP posts:
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natgt · 13/05/2018 21:48

@RatRolyPoly If you consider that "passing/near passing" trans people aren't challenged in public loos now I think the fear is with such a broad umbrella and self ID bob the cross dresser can enter unchallenged and protected from being kicked out.

Opheliah · 13/05/2018 21:50

It's bullshit to claim most childen sent to gender clinics are turned away when they are such a huge cash cow. Most are encouraged onto the path.

RatRolyPoly · 13/05/2018 21:50

Apart from that fact that you pontificate endlessly about equality and inclusivity and actually you havn't got a fucking clue who and what you are referring to

LOL

Opheliah thank you. I guess the thing I'm wondering is, if the umbrella simply said "people born one sex who identify as the other" - so a far less broad definition - would anything be different? All of those people who you understandably are concerned about allowing access to, wouldn't they still have that access? The AGP could still use a ladies loo whether he's under the umbrella or not.

I'm wondering how the breadth of the umbrella is a problem in itself you see, although Ereshkigal has gone some way to expressing her own issues with it. I'm grateful for that.

Anyway, thanks again, really do appreciate it :)

SarahCarer · 13/05/2018 21:50

But that was before the massive surge so I am hopeful it is lower now.

RatRolyPoly · 13/05/2018 21:59

think the fear is with such a broad umbrella and self ID bob the cross dresser can enter unchallenged and protected from being kicked out.

Oh, thanks nat, I missed your post!

Okay, so if cross-dressing wasn't under the trans umbrella and Bob (for whatever reason) wanted to use the ladies... couldn't he just do so as Bob the totally-not-passing transwoman? So big umbrella, shall umbrella, makes no odds?

Thanks again, I think I need to go away and sleep on it - so that's what I'm going to do :)

RatRolyPoly · 13/05/2018 22:00

*SMALL, not shall

natgt · 13/05/2018 22:00

@SarahCarer there will also be kids that do go through a "phase" and use different name and pronoun for a while then go no further than that or go "back" to how they were. I tried to find some stats out of interest but didn't find anything except referral numbers.

@Opheliah cash cow for who?

SupermatchGame · 13/05/2018 22:01

*t

natgt · 13/05/2018 22:09

@RatRolyPoly I have no idea really... i can't imagine anyone demanding to see someone's GRC in a public toilet but I'm sure someone who thinks the umbrella is dangerous to women and children will explain.

Picassospaintbrush · 13/05/2018 22:22

Ok, for those of you unenlightened about the umbrella, meet Phil Bunce

twitter.com/CreditSuisse/status/971060336819228672

He was given a Financial Times Top 50 Female Champions for Women in Business for coming to work dressed as a woman. Because clearly there are not enough women to give awards to, men need to be included in the top 50 women.

So as "woman" now means "wearing a dress and a wig" according to the umbrella, women can just budge up, we have enough equality now, time for fetishistic men to be included.

RatRolyPoly · 13/05/2018 22:23

A couple have given me insights nat, so that's a starting point. I've even gone back to the stonewall image on the back of what Ereshkigal said about protecting/legitimising (I paraphrase, I can't remember the wording) cross dressing fetishists, but the only remotely nefarious term I can see underneath is "cross dresser". If (for the sake of argument) "cross dresser" were removed, the umbrella wouldn't be much less broad but perhaps that would help?

I don't know, I'm probably reading too much into it. But if people - women - are scared by it I think it bears some scrutiny.

PencilsInSpace · 13/05/2018 22:24

Trundling through the gish gallop here because I have opened some wine and have no work tomorrow.

No-one knows what the amended Gender Recognition Act might look like, because it hasn't been drafted yet. But it seems most likely that it will involve nothing more than a change to the administrative procedures required for the issue of a Gender Recognition Certificate. It won't affect anyone other than people who are actually applying for one.

We can get a fair idea from the government's pronouncements and from the Scottish consultation documents what the proposed new GRA might look like, and how much of a shit they give about women (image is from Scotland's wholly inadequate and possibly illegal equality impact assessment).

The proposals are to remove all the requirements for evidence. Applicants will no longer have to show they have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria or that they have 'lived in' the new gender for 2 years (in practice a few official docs in the new name - passport, drivers licence, DWP, HMRC letters, payslips, household bills etc.)

The proposals don't just change an administrative procedure for those who would have applied for a GRC anyway, they expand eligibility to anyone with £140 and a biro (fee waiver for anyone on a low income). It's true you'll also have to pay a solicitor's fee to notarise the stat dec. A quick google shows the going rate for this service is £5.

I've said earlier that a GRC is neither here nor there for trans people and that's true legally, aside from a couple of very specific situations. What the self-ID proposals do - have already done before any legal changes, is change the culture around what and who women are expected to put up with in our spaces (in the widest sense).

The other thing to consider is that the GRA interacts with other legislation. It may seem like it makes no difference to allow people to self-ID to get an obsolete document, but if another law is then amended to allow further rights to people with a GRC we will be in deep shit. For example the trans equality report also recommends changing the equality act so that sex based exceptions would not apply where someone has a GRC. The current government have said they won't change the EA but governments only last a handful of years, after that all bets are off.

Transphobia or truths?
Opheliah · 13/05/2018 22:25

Okay, so if cross-dressing wasn't under the trans umbrella and Bob (for whatever reason) wanted to use the ladies... couldn't he just do so as Bob the totally-not-passing transwoman
As you obviously know there is no law stopping any old bloke using the ladies loo because it's just a custom. But why would anyone old bloke or not passing transwoman want to break a long established tradition of female only spaces? Isn't that just being deliberately intimidating and dickish?

Womanhood is not under an umbrella. There are no males who are slightly female, slightly less female than female, not female enough they're all just male. End of.

ToeToToe · 13/05/2018 22:27

"cash cow for who?"

Drugs cost money, and pharma companies want to sell them. Private gender clinics cost money, surgery costs money (not all is done on the NHS), trips to USA to see 'Indiana Jones', cost money. I don't think 'Indiana Jones' treats children for free.

thebewilderness · 13/05/2018 22:29

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RatRolyPoly · 13/05/2018 22:31

Thanks again Ophelia, I'll think about it :)

Just in case the broad umbrella is a worry to anybody else I'm posting a pic and would be keen to hear. Just noticed transvestite is under there as well as cross dresser. But I don't want to derail any more than I already have, and I'm definitely going to bed this time!

Transphobia or truths?
Picassospaintbrush · 13/05/2018 22:32

If you don't agree men are women you will never amount to anything according to Phil.

twitter.com/PippaBunce/status/949597497147691008

LangCleg · 13/05/2018 22:33

cash cow for who?

GenderCare have just added another clinic day. £300 per hour.

SarahCarer · 13/05/2018 22:33

@natgt maybe so, maybe so, but we do know that the use of hormone suppressants for children presenting as trans has increased dramatically in line with the surge in referrals (20 fold increase in the US between 2014 and 2016) and that those who begin puberty blockers and watch others of their sex go through puberty from the outside with fewer and fewer GNC examples to follow, they then do not desist. So the decision was effectively made when they were 12/13/14 years old.

Picassospaintbrush · 13/05/2018 22:38

Listen to Lucy, lesbian Arab muslim.

If a fire fighter cross dresser decides to use his gender umbrella based rights her career is over. SuperMatchGame responded to this by saying, so what, she might have to use a toilet with a transwoman, so making it clear, any man's rights are more important than ALL women's to SuperMatchGame.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 13/05/2018 22:39

if you don't have an answer that's completely okay. Of course it is

Or if you dont want to answer another fucking boring pointless question

Thats okay as well...

RatRolyPoly · 13/05/2018 22:41

Course it is. Although I don't often ask questions, I'm usually the one answering them!

Ereshkigal · 13/05/2018 22:45

Just noticed transvestite is under there as well as cross dresser.

Every day's a school day, eh, Rat?

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 13/05/2018 22:45

Agender is a term which can be literally translated as 'without gender'. It can be seen either as a non-binary gender identity or as a statement of not having a gender identity. People who identify as agender may describe themselves as one or more of the following: Genderless or lacking gender. Gender neutral

This is under that umbrella as well

Please note the phrase 'or as a statement of not having a gender identity'

Thats a fair portion of the women on FWR...and a fair few on mumsnet as a whole

Picassospaintbrush · 13/05/2018 22:45

From a position of utter cluelessness.

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