Uncomfortable about unisex toilets at work

[Onlyinanemergency]

My workplace is moving to new premises and all the toilets are to be unisex. Apparently the bathrooms consist of several floor-to-ceiling cubicals opening out onto shared sinks. There is then a large window onto a public corridor so that the sink area can be seen from outside the bathroom. There are 3 of these bathrooms, one on each floor of the building, as well as 3 single disabled toilets. The architects have obviously put a lot of thought into creating toilets which are unisex but also fairly safe and private, yet I still feel really uncomfortable about the idea. Particularly about not being given a choice. Am I wrong?

I had a similar experience jugglingsatsumas; there's this carpet remnant shop near my work and I popped in there one lunchtime to have a quick look. As I was talking to the guy, he had one arm to the right of me and then he sort of leaned across me and put the other arm to the left, so that I was trapped looking at these rolls of carpet. Even though the shop was open, every instinct screamed at me to get the hell out of there.

Our instincts are there for a reason. They're telling us we're in danger. They're usually right, because they are picking up on signs which indicate danger. In my situation, it was that this guy had no respect for my personal space, therefore, I couldn't be sure that he'd have respect for any other boundaries. In your's, it was that he had no respect for your need to walk freely from his premises without him releasing you first. While in your case, the guy wasn't doing anything wrong, your instincts about your safety are there for a reason. And yet men constantly tell us to override our instincts, that they are unreasonable and wrong. When actually, they are there to help us survive.

@AntiGrinch
I was sitting at a table in a public place yesterday.............the man was supervising them and felt far too close to me. he felt tall and looming. Surely this is personal to you? You may want a three metre exclusion zone, the next person may want one metre. This guy appears to have treated you in the same manner he would treat a man. Do you want more than that?

Sometimes I think the emphasis on safety / threat is misplaced. I really do just want men to go away, often, even when I have no sense of threat at all

I don't know. why can't they all just fuck off well there's no arguing with that well-balanced view point

he was behaving as if there was no one in the space I was in

And if he'd acknowledged you were there he'd have been accused of "ogling" or staring at you.

You accept that he wasn't up to no good, but I also think you have to accept that your perceptions are skewed (due to previous experiences?) and it's not reasonable to expect people to know your exact requirements.......

DrMorbius does it have to be well balanced, can't it just be a view point?

And if he'd acknowledged you were there he'd have been accused of "ogling" or staring at you So you are assuming that the poster thinks that acknowledged has the same meaning as ogling, staring?

..........but I also think you have to accept that your perceptions are skewed........ Do you often tell people that they have to accept something? Or that their perceptions are skewed?

I can't help but think of "man spreading" here. As a subway user, I'm very well acquainted with the male ability to take up space. We have been conditioned to be small, to budge up, to move out of the way. Men get to spread out, loom large. It's not intentional for the most part, most men are not trying to appear threatening, but it is reality.

Indeed "man spreading" also posters who try to defend it by blaming the women who feel uncomfortable and talk about it.

It seems we have to be told how to think and our perceptions questioned.

I don't use a mooncup but I doubt I would be comfortable washing it out in the sink area outside the cubicle if ANYONE was there, man or woman. I also think I would be a bit grossed out to see someone else doing that where I would wash my hands. I don't know why but it would bother me less if they had done it but I hadn't seen :s

@underthestarrysky Menstrual blood is a lot more hygienic than the faecal bacteria that also ends up in sinks from your hands.

This is absolutely TMI, but that’s what this situation forces on us isn’t it?

When I’m on my period, it’s so heavy that it’s literally impossible for me not to get blood on my hands while changing my pad or just wiping. Sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. Believe me, I try, but just reaching down there with loo roll means I end up with a lot of blood on my hands most of the time.

I’m sure male coworkers would be thrilled to see me scrubbing blood from my hands / fingernails when they pop in for a wee.

@DrMorbius

@AntiGrinch
I was sitting at a table in a public place yesterday.............the man was supervising them and felt far too close to me. he felt tall and looming. Surely this is personal to you? You may want a three metre exclusion zone, the next person may want one metre. This guy appears to have treated you in the same manner he would treat a man. Do you want more than that?

Years ago, when I was quite young, a friend of a friend came to view a premises I was vacating. He walked behind me too close, all the time. I got very antsy, and eventually told him he was in my personal place. He laughed at how weird I was. A couple of years later his wife left him because of DV. Normal people recognise other's personal space, it doesn't cover a different area for everyone on the planet.

This guy appears to have treated you in the same manner he would treat a man. Do you want more than that?

No. I get what @AntiGrinch means here - IME, men take up space as if by birthright - whereas women will try to ensure that they don't encroach on others. And women notice other people in their shared space, whereas men just don't.

Viz. manspreading.

It's as if people (often women) around them are invisible. Or - more likely with masculine privilege - they expect women to move for them.

I find this very interesting when sitting next to men at the theatre or on an aeroplane: the subtle expectation that I will take my arm off the arm rest. I don't.

And sometimes, it's very funny observing the discomfort and even overtly expressed annoyance of the man at my daring not to move aside to give him space!

Men don't splay their legs sitting next to other men like they do with women, do they

When I’m on my period, it’s so heavy that it’s literally impossible for me not to get blood on my hands while changing my pad or just wiping. Sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. Believe me, I try, but just reaching down there with loo roll means I end up with a lot of blood on my hands most of the time.

Me too.

If you can't convince women that Gender Neutral toilets are bad, how do expect to convince men? Again it comes down to empathy - if people can't put themselves in your situation (and a lot of women can't) then they're not going to understand your concerns.

It seems we have to be told how to think and our perceptions questioned

Some people are quite happy to assign motives to others based on nothing but sex, that's what half of this "conversation" is about FGS.

Good luck with the campaign anyway!! I hope it reaches a satisfactory outcome.

Maybe women give each other more space or women give men more space than men give women, or each other. It doesn't make us wrong. It makes us considerate. Why accept the lowest common denominator of human behaviour? Even if there is a symmetry, which there isn't?

Ok leave aside the asymmetry for a minute.

Yes, men do encroach on each other and push each other about, more than women. (I think - from casual observation) This is annoying, and just because men do it habitually to each other doesn't make it ok. In the same way that the way they treat their own toilets disgustingly and apparently accept it (or are forced to accept it - I refuse to believe that there isn't a blatant power play to all this which is designed to be, and is, very uncomfortable for some men) it isn't ok for them to treat women's space and bodies as cavalierly, because it just isn't nice.

Secondly - the balance of power between men and women is not equal. So it is highly threatening to ignore and loom and encroach over a woman who is not socialised to shove back. If you do, you are likely to be in big trouble.

Thirdly, you fool, of course I know the difference between a friendly nod and an ogle. the friendly nod usually comes with a bit of politeness and consideration of personal space, too.

fourthly, I'm done with reasonable. Absolutely fucking done with it. You seem to be hinting that I might have been assaulted and therefore be unbalanced. Actually in my life I have only suffered the low level minor physical and sexual abuse that puts me in the category of "one of the lucky ones" - hence, I suppose, my highly privileged focus on annoyance and discomfort rather than extreme physical danger. However, if your definition of a "balanced" woman's POV is that of one who has suffered NO sexual or physical harrassment, you'll end up with zero, which, I guess is what you already think about women's POVs.

Why is it that EMPIRICAL EXPERIENCE is deranged when it's that of women? A fact is a fact, till a woman says it, when it becomes an unbalanced point of view.

People rinse mooncups out in the sink? I have literally never seen that. That is absolutely rank.

"People rinse mooncups out in the sink? I have literally never seen that. That is absolutely rank."
Nah, from a biological point of view, hands are probably nastier.........

I was a little too early for mooncups, but some of the reactions here get me thinking of the good ole days, when a true feminist knew the taste of her own menstrual blood (and rad lezzies knew the taste of another womans)......The heady days of self-examination:

guhistfem.wordpress.com/2015/12/15/the-big-chakra/

Although nice to see you can still get the Cunt Coloring Book on Amazon..................

More raspberry jam on yer cunt cup-cakes say I . Cunts and what they produce are not rank..................

Why do I have to convince other women that mixed sex toilets are bad? They can share with men if they want to.

If you won't listen to Amnesty and the UN, who say sex specific spaces lower the risk of assault, then nothing will change your mind anyway.

I say no. I have a right to consent, and a right not to consent.

That's hilarious, CadyHeron the right on libfem equality inclusive every one join in it all lovely, but no, not really, menstrual blood in a sink is rank. It's not hilarious at all, it's rank hypocrisy.

If you won't listen to Amnesty and the UN, who say sex specific spaces lower the risk of assault, then nothing will change your mind anyway.

I predict Amnesty for one will be burying that recommendation.

Well its screen shot so they can't burn it

I think that much of what we see men do is a public display of male dominance. Rather like the way critters puff up to seem bigger than they are.

Rinsing urine and feces off ones hands in the sink is unavoidable. I think people balking at menstrual blood being rinsed in the same sink that urine and feces are is cultural conditioning plain and simple.