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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Uncomfortable about unisex toilets at work

803 replies

Onlyinanemergency · 08/05/2018 12:05

My workplace is moving to new premises and all the toilets are to be unisex. Apparently the bathrooms consist of several floor-to-ceiling cubicals opening out onto shared sinks. There is then a large window onto a public corridor so that the sink area can be seen from outside the bathroom. There are 3 of these bathrooms, one on each floor of the building, as well as 3 single disabled toilets. The architects have obviously put a lot of thought into creating toilets which are unisex but also fairly safe and private, yet I still feel really uncomfortable about the idea. Particularly about not being given a choice. Am I wrong?

OP posts:
Pratchet · 13/05/2018 12:52

Validation. It's not safety - attacks on TW in the men's aren't frequent like attacks on women.

AntiGrinch · 13/05/2018 13:51

I was sitting at a table in a public place yesterday, alone, reading, waiting for my children to come out of an activity. Another family near me consisted of two smallish children and a man. they children were changing their shoes and the man was supervising them and felt far too close to me. he felt tall and looming and while he was giving his full attention to the children, he was behaving as if there was no one in the space I was in and he was just too close and too obtrusive.

Having been reading and posting on this thread I was thinking about WHY he was annoying and making me uncomfortable. In this case, it honestly had nothing to do with safety. He was definitely there for the sole purpose of looking after his children and not to pick up, flirt with, assault, or annoy women or men or anyone else. YET. he was just RUDE with his hugeness and his disregard for me. Not a huge deal, but I was pleased when he went away.

Sometimes I think the emphasis on safety / threat is misplaced. I really do just want men to go away, often, even when I have no sense of threat at all.

Sometimes, I think it is subconsciously about a sense of physical threat; that what I think of as "just uncomfortable" is something that my body recgnises as "in this situation, he could do anything and you wouldn't be able to do anything about it, and his body language is giving you no indication that he is considerate or polite so you shold be prepared for anything".

I don't know. why can't they all just fuck off.

leggere · 13/05/2018 14:06

Yes AntiGrinch. I've been caught a few times sitting in cafes, by men swinging their coats outwards to put on. When I stand up to put my coat on, I always look to check there's enough room. Often they don't and I've even been flicked in the eye! A few have not even noticed, a few have said "oh, sorry didn't see you there", and a few have been reprimanded by their wives who have noticed. The "didn't see you there" is ridiculous. I'm a large woman and always wear bright clothes. Annoying and a bit dangerous. Have to add, I've never been caught by a woman's swinging coat.

AngryAttackKittens · 13/05/2018 14:13

If someone's coat caught me in the eye because they hadn't been paying attention to who else was around they'd be getting an earful. WTF?

leggere · 13/05/2018 14:18

I did make my voice heard on that occasion but I'm aware that nowadays I lean away when the next table are leaving. Shouldn't have to though.

AngryAttackKittens · 13/05/2018 14:21

Makes me lean towards AntiGrinch's "why can't they all just fuck off".

My pet hate is the men who walk along in the middle of the pavement and plough right into any woman in their path because apparently walking to and from the shops is a battle for dominance that they must win by knocking other people over.

leggere · 13/05/2018 14:22

Apparently I'm invisible in cafes but spotball in the street! Even now in my early sixties, I still get unwelcome comments from men. I too wish they'd just fuck off.

jugglingsatsumas · 13/05/2018 14:25

Working in bright, modern workspaces may mean unisex toilets are safe. When you work in isolated buildings on a university campus out of term time, suddenly unisex toilets doesn't seem so safe.

This is exactly my experience. Our toilets at work are unisex (without floor to ceiling walls) and I don't like them! I think though the main reason I don't like them is that they are isolated - even if they were female only toilets men could hang around in them without anyone noticing for ages.

I had an experience the other day which really made me think about our feelings of vulnerability. I went into a hardware shop (small one) with DD and it was almost closing time. There were two men waiting to be served and the assistant was male too. As soon as I came in he put down the metal shutter and locked it and pocketed the key. Obviously he did this because he didn't want any more customers coming in but I was surprised by how panicked I felt. I found it really difficult not to seem anxious in front of DD but I HATED being in that shop and not being able to get out. The assistant served the first customer, unlocked the door to let him out - at which point I left too and said I didn't have time to wait. I was telling DH this and he really thought my fear was ridiculous. Yes, on a logical level, I know it was unlikely that anything bad was going to happen but on an instinctive level I just wanted to get the hell out of there! I don't think many men really understand this.

leggere · 13/05/2018 14:35

Yes, some may try to understand but they just can't. Hence, a transwoman is not a woman. Never will be, sorry.

Pratchet · 13/05/2018 14:42

The walking is interesting. Try walking in a straight line and not doing the subconscious swerving and adjustments we always make. It's amaZing how many men walk straight into you because they expect you to move out of the way.

WanderinWomb · 13/05/2018 15:08

I can't dodge and swerve around people now and need to keep to a mostly straight path and a steady pace( neuro thing, I stumble like a drunk, can't do nifty footwork required) and men will continue to plough into me .

I've been sent flying many a time. Recently shouted at a bloke " walk right fucking though me if you want "
One man out with children asked his daughter to move aside for me rather than his son even though the son was in front of me.
Male children will plough right at me where female children mostly step out of the way.

The male socialisation that you go where you want,when you want and that public spaces are free for you to access starts very very young.

Pratchet · 13/05/2018 15:09

How awful, wandering.

leggere · 13/05/2018 15:16

Wanderin, do you use a stick? I do (arthritis) Whrn men are coming towards you, as they get close just lift the stick up a bit pointing outwards at an angle. They may not notice you, but they seem to notice the stick and walk round you. I've even tripped a few ignorant buggers this way (bonus pointsGrin)

AntiGrinch · 13/05/2018 15:16

Sorry to hear that, Wandering.
I noticed this more when I had a pram and / or toddlers. When you have a baby in a pushchair, and only one hand for the pushchair because the other one is holding a small child's hand, you really notice who behaves as if your party are humans and who doesn't

AntiGrinch · 13/05/2018 15:17

What used to outrage me about this was: we are THREE people! Three whole people! And you can't even acknowledge a single one of us as a whole human!

Juells · 13/05/2018 15:20

@jugglingsatsumas

This is exactly my experience. Our toilets at work are unisex (without floor to ceiling walls) and I don't like them!

Is that even legal? I wouldn't have thought so. A gift for voyeurs and sneaky filming.

Pratchet · 13/05/2018 15:23

It's weird that to complain about actual men in female spaces, not even trans, is now seen somehow as bigoted.

jugglingsatsumas · 13/05/2018 15:42

@Juells - I'm not in the UK but it hadn't even occurred to me that it might not be legal! I work in a very old building and the toilets have been squashed in here or there without much thought for privacy. One is off a corridor (again without a proper closed in cubicle) so you can hear students waiting outside (and they can hear you) but I rarely use that one!

Talking about men not seeing you: I was on the bus on an aisle seat the other day and the man literally clambered over me to get out - put his hand on my shoulder to swing himself past me! I was so shocked that I didn't say anything but it was like he didn't recognise me as human.

leggere · 13/05/2018 15:47

A few times Anti, I've stood in a shop doorway, leaning on my stick, holding the door open for a mother with pushchair, toddlers, trying to manoeuvre all her stuff through the doorway and some "very important" man pushes his way through the gap!! Leaving both me and the mother speechless!

AngryAttackKittens · 13/05/2018 15:50

From earlier...

Is it that they see us as some kind of "secret club" and they need to be in it?

Sexy pillowfight. This appears to be what all male humans think female humans do the second they're not around.

leggere · 13/05/2018 16:04

Don't think I'd be very sexy! Grey hair, overweight!Smile That's another thing, I have grey hair and men have silver.

catinapatchofsunshine · 13/05/2018 16:13

Pratchett since turning 40 I've made a point of consciously not moving for men unless I would for a woman. I no longer care, and I'm quite strong and stocky. It takes actual concentration but I wanted to set an example for DD of not always budging up so I sit in DH's spot on the sofa too Men are always surprised, but so far have not said anything or knocked me flying.

It takes effort not to apologise when men walk into you and they are clearly the one not looking where they are going or assuming that you'll move too. I think being British makes that even more ingrained. I've noticed women in my adopted country move aside less - pretty much the entire world apologises less!

JoandMax · 13/05/2018 16:38

I would hate unisex toilets, especially if the basins aren’t even in the cubicles.

It hit me firmly today, I have the most horrific period and was up nearly all night in agony. I had to go to an appointment (regarding said periods!) and when I was waiting felt a huge flood coming on. Made it to the toilets but as happens sometimes I had leaked on my clothes. I had to come out and clear myself up, I was also pretty emotional and teary. A lovely lovely woman comforted me and helped me calm down. If there’d of been a man there??? I would of felt embarrassed and ashamed. I know it’s a natural bodily function but just at the time I needed privacy and to not worry about people coming in who wouldn’t/couldn’t understand......

Pratchet · 14/05/2018 04:15

Jo, much sympathy. This is what TRA call 'cis privilege' 🙄Hmm and they don't feel empathy, they just want you to stop talking about it, because they can't have it.

AskAuntLydia · 14/05/2018 06:38

I was telling DH this and he really thought my fear was ridiculous. Yes, on a logical level, I know it was unlikely that anything bad was going to happen but on an instinctive level I just wanted to get the hell out of there! I don't think many men really understand this.

They don't understand this because they've been socialised not to listen to women but to dismiss us when we voice our fears, especially about them. As a society we're so invested in pretending that male violence isn't systemic, just random lunatics each time with no connection to each other or our society, that men simply don't recognise that every time women meet new men, we have to assess our safety with them in a much more conscious way than men have to when they meet each other.

Your DH's first response to you telling him of your fear, wasn't to question why men make women fearful, but to dismiss your fear as ridiculous. Because if he was worried in this situation, then it probably would be ridiculous, a) because he's able to defend himself and has a fighting chance of doing so effectively against any attack and b) because he's not in the target group of regular victims of attack by predatory males.

So because he's the default human, he assumes that what would be an appropriate response for him, would also be the appropriate response for you.

Men have been socialised to understand that with other oppressed groups than women, there is good reason for those groups to be cautious; he'd be unlikely to dismiss the fears of any other group on the receiving end of targeted violence than women; but because he's blissfully unaware of how normal the background to our lives of male violence is (and he's not listening when we tell him), he's not able to make the same leap of empathy that he would if someone from another oppressed group was telling him of their fears about being in this vulnerable situation with a member of the oppressor group.