Uncomfortable about unisex toilets at work

[Onlyinanemergency]

My workplace is moving to new premises and all the toilets are to be unisex. Apparently the bathrooms consist of several floor-to-ceiling cubicals opening out onto shared sinks. There is then a large window onto a public corridor so that the sink area can be seen from outside the bathroom. There are 3 of these bathrooms, one on each floor of the building, as well as 3 single disabled toilets. The architects have obviously put a lot of thought into creating toilets which are unisex but also fairly safe and private, yet I still feel really uncomfortable about the idea. Particularly about not being given a choice. Am I wrong?

I'm really shy, obviously I have worked on it over the years but now in my 50s, it's not going to change much. I am shy and private and would hate to be in a unisex loo (outside of those disabled toilets which are just one room). Why is that not valid?

So yeah, both were vile, but it seemed to be only the mens that had vile stuff on purpose

There is so much denial about how totally vile a large number of men are and how much they hate women.

The wanker who hates women (every office has at least one), who knows female colleagues are going to have to come into the loo he is using, is going to take full advantage of a chance to rub their nose in his shit, metaphorically speaking but far too close to literally.

Casually handing men who hate us, a chance to humiliate or at least discomfit us, is fucking stupid. Honestly, you are fucking stupid if you think this is a good idea. Yes I know most men are OK and won't abuse mixed sex loos. But there will always be one. Single sex loos hand that one power on a plate. He will control that aspect of his female colleague's working day and get a kick out of it. And you're OK with that, hmm?

Has anyone ever decided to campaign for unisex toilets?

I understand that it makes building cheaper and easier, and gets over any "Can Lucinda who used to be Bob use the ladies' loo" questions, so unisex facilities must be attractive to senior management who decide on the building spec and set up

But AFAIK most men prefer facilities with urinals (much quicker and easier) but don't want to use them when women are around .(understandably). Women have their own objections to unisex facilities.

Which leaves who, exactly, who thinks that unisex is great?

Why is that not valid?

It is valid! All the reasons are valid. Shyness, not wanting to wash out a shirt, having to change your tights youve just laddered (and try doing that in a battery hen sized loo..) adjusting hijab, snapped bra strap, ALL he reasons are valid. Or being totally fine with it but thinking thatvother women might not be. Also valid.

The fact that we feel we have to even give reasons is a sign of how little women are listened to. ‘No I don’t want this to happen’ should be enough. But no, we feel like a no means nothing so we launch in to long winded please for our point of view. When the answer should be ‘No.’

The last year or so I’ve been experimenting with ‘no.’ At work and in my life. Not ‘no I’d love to but..’ or ‘oh if I had time I’d...’ just no. Or no that doesn’t work for me. But no without any qualifiers or justifications or apologies or long explanations.

It’s been hugely eye opening for the reactions. Some people accept it just fine. Several female colleagues have asked about it and started doing the same. Some people wait as if you’re going to have to start explaining yourself now and when you don’t, and you’re just smiling and waiting and there’s silence, they are so uncomfortable. And then there are the people who will not accept it. Those ones are very interesting - a couple have become very aggressive. Because women can’t just say no.

I personally cant think of anything worse than coming out of a cubical and finding a male colleague straight away entering it.

No it isn't

Yes it is, Rat. That's literally what you are doing.

The fact that we feel we have to even give reasons is a sign of how little women are listened to. ‘No I don’t want this to happen’ should be enough. But no, we feel like a no means nothing so we launch in to long winded please for our point of view. When the answer should be ‘No.’

YY. No is a complete sentence, after all.

Just on the “no” point - slightly off topic but I am curious ... I can see that you got those reactions, not surprised, but (assuming you are in the UK) don’t you think that kind of bluntness would be met with bemusement from either sex? I’d find it rude from a man or a woman? Or do you mean you say no with the usual British faffing ie apology/faux concern/eeerrm erm well I’m afraid all very difficult etc - but short of actual reasons - or so you literally just say “no”? Genuine question.

I sometimes say (non work context) “I don’t have the energy for that right now “ but i suppose that is an excuse too...

"No, that doesn't work for me" would be fine if you think "no" is too abrupt. Just don't apologise.

Rat, like many liberal feminists you seem to think that bad things happening to women are a mistake. you don't seem to grasp the systemic nature of our oppression.

To be clear I do not mean to imply that the system is conscious on the level of most or even necessarily many individual men.

OK I am old and knackered and an abuse survivor, but let us be very clear - everyone good heartedly trying to get on in good faith is NOT the answer here, any more than it was for India kicking out the British, or Martin Luther King in the USA.

And all this bollocks of liaising with HR for little baskets of tampons - no no no no no no no no. It's like Nelson Mandela asking for a fruit bowl in his cell, getting one (paying for it himself) and thinking everything was ok now.

I don't suppose men like sharing toilets with women either.
Femanist wanted equility and now we all have to live with the drawbacks.
Well done the sisterhood.

AntiGrinch I love the NM analogy

Femanist wanted equility and now we all have to live with the drawbacks.
Well done the sisterhood.

Why are you blaming feminists for decisions made by men?

Femanist wanted equility and now we all have to live with the drawbacks.
Well done the sisterhood.

Yes this is obviously nonsense but check what Rat is saying - it does kind of lead to this. We bring discomfort and indignity on ourselves by our weak and unenlightened attitudes, we will all be free when we have freed ourselves from a desire for "special treatment" etc - it makes me quite cross actually

I am sure Rat doesn't really want to disadvantage women but we have to be SO CAREFUL that changes made in society which recognise our increased ability to get out and take part in public life, earn money etc DON'T come at the expense of existing rights specific to women, whcih are there to compensate in part for structural sex based inequalities

EG. If men want to take care of babies and small (or medium sized, or large) children, then great, but do NOT go fucking about with existing maternity rights.

having to change your tights youve just laddered (and try doing that in a battery hen sized loo..)

I wouldn't dream of changing laddered tights in the sink area. It doesn't need any more room than sitting on the loo does.

Has anyone ever decided to campaign for unisex toilets?

I don't know. I haven't come across that many. The Theatre Royal in Glasgow has them after a refit and they are lovely. Full cubicles with thick heavy doors and individual mirrors and sinks and a large outer mirrored section. A couple of restaurants with single cubicles and individual mirrors and sinks opening direct on to a corridor.

I personally cant think of anything worse than coming out of a cubical and finding a male colleague straight away entering it

Why? I can understand being (illogically and irrationally) embarrassed if one had diarrhoea and it was smelly or the flush was broken but that embarrassment would be just as bad if it were a woman waiting to go in. Possibly worse as a man probably would not make anything of it.

The appeals to ‘not be prudish about periods’ are another way of shutting down women’s concerns
It places the blame for not acquiescing immediately onto the women - look we are all just silly embarrassed prudes, not like these modern enlightened people!

No it isn't. And tbh it does make some of you look like that.

And I'm not modern. I will be 59 on my next birthday. I must have had my first period in 1972/1973. I find the attitudes to periods expressed by many MNetters and the willingness to perpetuate the idea that periods are, or society says periods are, shameful, genuinely shocking.

Wanting privacy isn't prudish or admitting shame. It's just about privacy. People are different.

You really are shocked by the idea that women want privacy in the toilet. Okay.

Wanting privacy isn't prudish or admitting shame. It's just about privacy. People are different

Rat made a good post about this a couple of pages back. For me many of the period posts go far beyond wanting privacy.

Wanting privacy is wanting a solid locked door in front of you regardless of what you are doing behind it. Everyone knows there are 2 things men do in a toilet and 3 things women do but one of these things is so mortifyingly embarrassing for some women that they can't bear the thought that a man might even think it was happening leading comments such that a man might see you washing your hands prepartory to changing a tampon.

That is not a healthy attitude and it is certainly not an attitude which we should be encouraging our daughters to have.

Most people don't generally talk about the fact they urinate or defecate but everyone knows everyone does and no one tries to disguise or hide the fact.

As I said, people are different. I don't want the men in my workplace to know when I'm having my period. I can deal with the women possibly being aware because they are in the same situation wrt periods as me. It's not mortifyingly embarrassing for me, I just don't want to make it known, for privacy.

Pratchet

You really are shocked by the idea that women want privacy in the toilet. Okay

Yeah Pratchet - you got it in one. I want all cubicle doors removed and women to send all office emails when they are having a periid. What a huge twisting of what I said.

I am shocked at the determination and enthusiasm of some posters to perpetuate the idea that society thinks periods are so terrible that even the idea that a man might assume you are washing your hands preparatory to changing your tampon is a rational thing to be worried about.

It's not feminists thinking this of course - it is society except the loudest voicest saying this seem to be feminists.

I am a woman.
I just don't want blokes, men, guys, whatever - in the same toilet as me. Because they have male socialisation and body.
I also don't want them stealing All Women Shortlists, etc.

There's no need for unisex toilets. I don't get it.

You still have to have the same number. I don't get why they have to be mixed. Women don't want it. I'm sure men don't want it. And transactivists certainly don't want it.

There's zero opportunity for validation in a unisex facility.

The only people for whom it might be useful is non-binary people and genuine transsexuals.

I don't see a need for unisex toilets.

I can see a need for getting rid of the ones with gaps. If given a choice of unisex and no gaps or single sex and gaps I'd take unisex but would not campaign for it.