Uncomfortable about unisex toilets at work

[Onlyinanemergency]

My workplace is moving to new premises and all the toilets are to be unisex. Apparently the bathrooms consist of several floor-to-ceiling cubicals opening out onto shared sinks. There is then a large window onto a public corridor so that the sink area can be seen from outside the bathroom. There are 3 of these bathrooms, one on each floor of the building, as well as 3 single disabled toilets. The architects have obviously put a lot of thought into creating toilets which are unisex but also fairly safe and private, yet I still feel really uncomfortable about the idea. Particularly about not being given a choice. Am I wrong?

Freudian slip there rat

LOL Rufus you beat me to it! Just about to type that!

Deal with the lack of empowerment not the symptoms of it then

If you fail to prioritise those who suffer by removing their supports instead of dealing with the structural inequality in our society which causes suffering then you have the wrong end of the stick

Ally to me I want women and men to be considered as equally capable, equally able, equally "normal", in all circumstances where there is no good reason (good for women that is) to see them as different.

So when applying for a job I am not different from a male applicant on the basis of my sex. As a parent I am not expected to be more responsible as a mother than as a father. In toilets my body is not more shameful than a man's.

So if I want my body to not be seen as more shameful, in an office environment where the only reason I can see for segregation is promoting this notion of shame - for the protection of men so they do not have to be discomforted by my body - fuck that if I think women should be hidden away beyond being behind a locked floor-to-ceiling cubicle door. I don't think the future of women's equality sees women and men not being able to enter the same room to access those cubicles. That doesn't say to men or to women "outside of what goes on in those cubicles we are just the same, and just as worthy as one-another".

I have literally just been to my work toilet after reading this thread - im field based so use lots of different loos in different stores with virtual strangers.

I sat down in the cubicle, and found there were 3 sheets of paper remaining. I'm on my period and inadvertently got a bit of blood on my hand - no additional paper to wipe.
So I then left the cubicle with my light coloured trousers undone as I don't want to get blood on them accidentally while doing up the button.
I then washed the blood off in the sink, did up my trousers, tucked in my shirt and fluffed my hair.

Id have been mildly uncomfortable doing all that with a female there. So do I want to do that with a male member of staff in the room, however nice & polite he is?

Do I fuck.

Freudian slip there rat

I did think that Rufus! Yeah, I have all the rights.

Touched a nerve, did I, Rat? I think there's some part of you that knows that it isn't OK to talk to other women that way. Maybe some day you'll get back in touch with that part, but for now all I can really do is wish you the gift/curse of self-awareness.

I will say as well, something someone said on a thread here a long time ago, certain places aren't "women's safe spaces" they are "women know your place spaces".

So if it isn't a safe space (or a space with an otherwise demonstrable need for women), it is simply a "know your place" space.

The room off which the toilet cubicles branch - particularly is the sinks are in the cubicles as they should be - that is a "know your place" space to me. That is a "women, you're different, get back in your box" reason to push us into our own room away from what should be just as much ours as any man's.

I think there's some part of you that knows that it isn't OK to talk to other women that way.

It's a bit laughable to go on about how people talk to other women when you're talking to me on these boards isn't it? I mean you know as well as anyone that I'm a woman, and it's not like you haven't seen me being roundly "spoken to". Apparently it's totally cool to be an angry, "not nice" feminist so long as you all agree. And I would argue that I'm on the nicer side of things!

I am rolling my eyes at Rat's 'logic'.

Why the hell should women have to give reasons why we don't want dick in our private spaces only to have cocksuckers then nitpick our arguments so we end up fighting about mooncups and pee and the like. 'No' should be enough.

rat you need to give some of them back then!!

I thought it was funny

Id have been sat there going 'oh god!!! Why that typo there!!!! Why god???!! Wwwhhhhhyyyy'

But you're probably made of sterner stuff

I don't think you shackle all women's progress in society to the boundaries of the least empowered

This is the single most cluelessly privileged thing I've seen anyone say in years. It's hilarious, in an "are you serious with this shit?" way.

This is what happens when your feminism has neither class analysis nor empathy, I guess.

So if I want my body to not be seen as more shameful, in an office environment where the only reason I can see for segregation is promoting this notion of shame

I'm surprised that you still hold this view after so many female posters have explained why having a separate space is important to them.

Between you and me Ally I'm not entirely convinced there is not an agenda behind some of those "reasons". What do you think?

This is what happens when your feminism has neither class analysis nor empathy, I guess.

In your class analysis Angry what benefit to women as a class can you see in there being separate rooms from which there are cubicles? What damage can you see it would do to women as a class? Because I'm seeing the proliferation of stigma as being a class detriment, and... okay, not really seeing how we benefit hugely as a class. Happy to be convinced?

Between you and me Ally I'm not entirely convinced there is not an agenda behind some of those "reasons". What do you think?

I don't see an agenda. I see women wanting privacy and dignity, which does not mean that they are ashamed or have an ulterior motive.

The benefit is that separate facilities are what most women want. Separate facilities were fought for by feminists because they were what women wanted, and in some countries they're still being fought for now.

You don't fix stigma by making the people who're the subject of the stigma uncomfortable. It's what someone said upthread about feelings - clearly you have a strong feeling that unisex toilets would fight the stigma. What you don't have is any evidence that that's the case, whereas we do have lots of evidence that many women don't want unisex toilets to happen.

You're arguing a feeling and don't even seem to realize that you're doing so. Which is why I laughed when I read your earlier comment.

I have always felt that the way young girls are taught to be secretive about their bodily functions (often by their mothers in previous generations) is to protect them.

if we fear men having access to the everyday realities of being a woman we are keeping them from our private spaces - because this keeps us safer.

Whether unconscious or not, this is an argument of safety - not of embarrassment.

We talk of embarrassment at sharing spaces with men, when in fact we are scared to admit we fear them.

'No' should be enough.

So on all those porn and stripping threads you get women who, when asked to give up their porn for the good of women, or when asked to give up stripping because of the way it promotes a sexualised view of women, they say "no".... you don't try and convince them of the benefits for women and for the advancement of feminism if they would?

I appreciate those scenarios are not ones involving personal/bodily boundaries as such where "no" is absolutely the bottom line; but I'm not sure you can call it a personal boundary to say you don't want to be in a room with penises. Not in a cubicle, not being able to see them, not having to look at them, just knowing they're in the same room as you before you access a cubicle.... Can I call it my own personal boundary to not have to share my office with a man? I don't think I can, and I think it makes a damaging mockery of the notion of "boundaries" to widen it out to include such nonsense.

The simple solution is to make the mens unisex and the women for women only.

Then everyone who is comfortable using a mixed space can make the active choice to do so. Over time, if its is as safe as people claim, it will become the norm.

Guardian response to GenderQuake debate:

www.theguardian.com/books/2018/may/09/make-all-public-toilets-gender-neutral-says-germaine-greer-on-c4

"Gender-neutral toilets has become a regular topic of discussion in relation to transgender rights but Greer, who has become a target for some activists after she said transgender women are “not real women”, used the live debate to say she had little time for that argument.

“I don’t get it,” she said. “I don’t understand why in England in particular defecation is thought of as a sexual activity. I don’t get it.”

• Attitudes to same-sex/ unisex loos do seem to show some differences across countries which might be expected to show much closer alignment (Australia - UK?)

-My understanding is that there are a number of laws / policies which relate to the provision of public & workplace toilets. If these are deemed redundant then this should be made clear and the removal justified.

-If we as a society are going to shift towards alternative arrangements I think all stakeholders should at the least be aware of this and able to contribute.

• Toilets are there for everyone. Those who do not have direct access to politicians/ media / social media power should also be considered.

-Some changes are being made piecemeal and then widespread implementation spreads due to precedent.

Between you and me Ally I'm not entirely convinced there is not an agenda behind some of those "reasons". What do you think?

I think the "agenda" is women's privacy, dignity AND boundaries.
Probably frivolous in your world. But we silly little women's liberationists are a sucker for that kind of thing.

clearly you have a strong feeling that unisex toilets would fight the stigma.

It's not a feeling, it's an opinion. Of course I "feel" my opinion, but it's a stretch to say it is one.

So you know it's not the same scenario but let's proceed as if it was for the sake of argument (and your hopefully winning it)?

I really should be doing other stuff right now but it's hard to walk away from something this unintentionally funny.

- Attitudes to same-sex/ unisex loos do seem to show some differences across countries which might be expected to show much closer alignment (Australia - UK?)

Nah, same in Australia really. Greer actually spends about 75/25 time in both countries. In actual fact, she is more of a liberal feminist, with radfem leanings. She is a smart woman though, even though I do disagree with some of what she says. TL;DR Greer isn't a full radical feminist, but close I guess.