Uncomfortable about unisex toilets at work

[Onlyinanemergency]

My workplace is moving to new premises and all the toilets are to be unisex. Apparently the bathrooms consist of several floor-to-ceiling cubicals opening out onto shared sinks. There is then a large window onto a public corridor so that the sink area can be seen from outside the bathroom. There are 3 of these bathrooms, one on each floor of the building, as well as 3 single disabled toilets. The architects have obviously put a lot of thought into creating toilets which are unisex but also fairly safe and private, yet I still feel really uncomfortable about the idea. Particularly about not being given a choice. Am I wrong?

There's no point my pretending that makes sense to me when it doesn't.

Very little of your "feminist" throwing of other women under the bus makes sense to me.

Did you want to add an 'hysterical' to go with that? Or was it of sufficient dismissal to women's concerns?

It's not women's concerns I'm dismissing, it's feminists. Feminists who don't know what they would do in the face of a "time of the month" joke

Very little of your perpetuating the eternal victimhood of women makes sense to me Ereshkigal. It's like you want women to feel weak and vulnerable, even in situations where 99.9999999999% of the time they needn't!

You do get bloody fingers after inserting a non-applicator tampon/changing a mooncup. I'm surprised any female would not know this

On my heavy days I get bloody fingers from changing an applicator tampon.

Very little of your perpetuating the eternal victimhood of women makes sense to me Ereshkigal. It's like you want women to feel weak and vulnerable, even in situations where 99.9999999999% of the time they needn't!

Go away, you silly person. Stop telling women how they should feel.

My partner complains about the men's toilets at his work.

If there wasn't a need for single sex toilets, we wouldn't have been given them in the first place.

Lack of separate toilets is preventing girls from going to school, in some countries. My daughter started her periods while at primary school, which was hard enough with single sex toilets. I don't think you eliminate gender stereotypes by ignoring biology.

Rat, I agree to an extent about pushing back, but I’ve had times in my life where I’ve felt able to be hardline, and times when I’ve felt vulnerable and just wanted privacy; I realise not everyone is the same.

This. It's usually best not to impose your own standards and beliefs on other people who feel differently, I find.

I don’t want to wash bloody hands in front of anyone!

I've just pieced together something that's been niggling me, on this thread and others. It's this "I feel this and I'm a woman and therefore feminists have to back me up".

That's no sort of feminist discussion I've ever had.

I would expect to have a look at the situation - office toilets - discuss what sort of women are likely to use those facilities, what sort of scenarios are likely to arise; and they set about contextualising those specifics in the climate of wider feminist aims, like the broad desires to reduce bodily stigma, protect from harm, ensure parity with men etc. Then coming to a conclusion about what best promotes women - both the ones in that office and also as a wider class - and everyone getting on board with that outcome.

I wouldn't expect it to be a discussion around "well I'm a feminist and I feel uncomfortable with the idea so you other feminists, you have to protect me from feeling uncomfortable".

Er, no.

I mean where did you think you were coming today? This is "feminism", it isn't "make you feel good"-ism. It's for women - for the continued furthering and achieving parity of the class of women. Sure, let's argue about how we think we can best achieve that, and what that means for unisex office toilets, but it's sure as fuck not centred around how any one of us feels.

If there wasn't a need for single sex toilets, we wouldn't have been given them in the first place.

I tend to think of anything we've been "given" by men, it probably isn't all that much of a prize...

I don’t want to wash bloody hands in front of anyone!

Me neither, toilets in cubicles please!

Aaghrgh rat - horrible nightmare vision of toilets not in cubicles!!!!!

Toilets and basins in cubicles!!!!!

@RatRolyPoly

*I've just pieced together something that's been niggling me, on this thread and others. It's this "I feel this and I'm a woman and therefore feminists have to back me up".

That's no sort of feminist discussion I've ever had.*

😳 I've been dumbfounded to realise that you're a woman, I genuinely thought you were a MRA when I've seen you posting in other threads. 😳 Not trying to be goady or insulting, that's just what I assumed 😳

Kinda shocked now I've realised I was wrong, actually.

I find that slightly disingenuous, Rat since I've seen you argue on other threads that because you have no issue with a certain situation (unisex toilets, mixed sleeping accommodation on trains, mixed sports) no other woman should have an issue.

The other thing is that there is no view from Mt Olympus, some dispassionate, god-like intellectually pure viewpoint from which we can see things clearly. It can sometimes be an interesting thought experiment to pretend there is such a thing (metaphors about blind justice, Rawl's initial position, etc.) but as a friend of mine put it, we always come into the game half way through, with its existing set of rules. So yes, ideally we should be doing away with stigma around periods, that would be lovely. But at the same time we are playing this game in a society where body-shaming of women is all pervasive, where male sexual violence is endemic, where men do perve on women in spaces like toilets given half the chance. And to exclude women from the public sphere by taking away, say, privacy in toilets on the basis that they shouldn't be uptight about their bodies, before society has managed to fix the problem of male sexual violence is putting the cart before the horse.

I think that solidarity in feminism is about caring about the struggles of the most vulnerable women around us and helping to project their needs.

There are women who do feel vulnerable and who are constricted by their culture. There are little girls who won’t go to the loo and schoolgirls who will come home early if their period starts.

Surely feminists care about each other’s struggles and support each other in overcoming them?

I’m trying not to be more open about periods with men but it’s a massive social taboo and I struggle. I know I’m privileged and in a strong position to address this but Im still very uncomfortable and mainly I conceal it

I mean trying to be more open

Juells, no bonafide woman I'm afraid, two kids cut out of me and everything

I find that slightly disingenuous, Rat since I've seen you argue on other threads that because you have no issue with a certain situation (unisex toilets, mixed sleeping accommodation on trains, mixed sports) no other woman should have an issue.

My position fermat is not to argue a point because I'm okay with it, but because I believe it is the right thing - for women, for people, I believe it is right. I will argue the toss on that (although I've never talked about trains), and I will be right or wrong, I will change my mind or not. I talk about sport as a sportswoman first and foremost - I've always said that - but unisex office toilets, as a feminist i think that is right. Same with pronouns - I'm against rigidly biological use of pronouns as a feminist, I think they are bad for women and they do not serve women, it's not about how I feel about them.

So yes, ideally we should be doing away with stigma around periods, that would be lovely. But at the same time we are playing this game in a society where body-shaming of women is all pervasive, where male sexual violence is endemic, where men do perve on women in spaces like toilets given half the chance.

I agree with you, and that's why there is a discussion to be had and why we should talk it out as feminists and come to our conclusions based on that discussion. Perhaps some of us (me included) are slanted too far one way and some of us too far the other - but it should be discussed.

Surely feminists care about each other’s struggles and support each other in overcoming them?

Of course, and of course it's different in schools, it's different in train stations and isolated places in the middle of nowhere, but this is office toilets. In office toilets I think gender neutral is fine. I'm interested in and pleased to see the discourse on the subject, but that's my two cents.

I think if you understand that other women have legitimate concerns and want to impose a boundary you will support that, even if you have more relaxed boundaries yourself.

In the same way, I would be OK with a transwoman doing a smear test on me, but I can understand that other women have legitimate reasons why they would not want this and so I will support them rather than attempting to 're-educate' them/force them to give up that boundary.

Well said Fermats, well said.

and it isn't women who aren't comfortable sharing intimate bodily functions with random male coworkers that I've said I have little sympathy for, it's self-professed feminists who do it

So women can complain about it but not someone who believes women should have equal rights to men (very basic definition of feminism but its the one i run with)

And what ally just said

I think if you understand that other women have legitimate concerns and want to impose a boundary you will support that, even if you have more relaxed boundaries yourself.

I don't think you shackle all women's progress in society to the boundaries of the least empowered - not least because that lack of empowerment is because of the patriarchy. How the bloody hell do you overcome the patriarchy if you uphold it's negative effect on women - all women - all of the time?

But yes, that has to be balanced with protecting the most vulnerable - of course it does. It's how we do that balancing act that's in question isn't it.

So women can complain about it but not someone who believes women should have equal rights to men

I would expect women who believe women should have equal rights to me to be wanting to do things that will actually help achieve that.

...equal rights to men, not me!

I don't think you shackle all women's progress in society to the boundaries of the least empowered

How are unisex toilets women's progress in society?

I also see this as the thin end of the wedge. How much more "men and women should be treated just the same regardless of their biology" will we face next?