TW are the most vulnerable? Errrrr....

[ShotsFired]

This is allegedly a video of the moments after the smaller man tried to mug the larger person of their purse/handbag. It was posted on an open/public FB group so I hope I am ok in repeating one poster's words, as they summed it up so neatly:

"One thing that's clear is that purse-carrying men are just as capable of defending themselves from fellow men as any man would be. The idea that they need to hide behind women - taking refuge in our rape crisis centers, prisons, wife battering shelters, locker rooms and restrooms so we can keep them safe from men - is ridiculous"

www.facebook.com/YoFemmy/videos/429821920775718

Well I'm not at all sure about that.

Men in general are attacked by other men a fair bit and there is plenty of damage and murder done. Men come in all shapes and sizes and clearly a small man (trans or not) would not stand a chance against a larger man or an armed one.

I also am sure that transwomen who don't pass and who do "present" as women (ie are not "masculine" in presentation ie wearing mens clothes) are at risk of ridicule and violence (although they don't seem to realise how much shit women and girls get which is interesting).

How do we know that big person was "trans" and anyway someone nicked the thing off the floor so it looks like their bag was stolen anyway... Weird video.

I believe that transwomen are at risk from male violence but

• why women have to sort this out for them is ???
• are they more at risk than women and girls? I would be interested to really compare, I think there is an issue that as ex men, like other men, they have NO IDEA of everything that happens to us, and also like many other men, they don't listen and they don't care. Like there was a plea for women to donate money to trans women to get cabs home after nights out so they felt safe, how bonkersly tone deaf is that?

Yy Sardine

I don't think men realise how much weaker than them women really are. I've seen plenty of accounts from transwomen who talk about their muscle mass reducing after being on hormone therapy, but I would bet my bottom dollar that average transwoman on hormones is still stronger than average woman. My 13 year old son is stronger than me in my mid-40s, after all, and he hasn't had the benefit of full puberty yet and I'm reasonably strong and healthy.

Hmm. I think we sometimes downplay the risks tw face on here. I have observed the force of male homophobia and hatred and fear that goes along with that. I have no science to this but I am prepared to believe that transwomen are more likely to be targeted for random attacks and hate crimes than, for example, a white middle class woman. And if they have trans identified for much of their life I can see how their socialisation and possibly victimisation might make them as fearful as us. It is still the fault of men and this is for men to solve. We are busy fighting for our own rights and protections. More so now.

Olennas yes

weakened man =/= woman

This idea is highly misogynistic.

Two wrongs don't make a Right.

It's wrong for TW to be physically attacked (whether by transphobic men or anyone else).

It's wrong for males to demand access to places which are segregated by sex for women's protection.

What is right is to denounce all violence (and be free to note it's mostly committed by males).

It's right if TW need sanctuary from male violence they should be able to campaign for it in the same way women campaign for women's refuges etc.

I agree that TW are at risk of male violence, SarahCarer, including as a result of internalised homophobia. I'd be completely behind a campaign to end male violence, to "reclaim the men's toilets", to enable non-GC men of all varieties to live a life without the risk of assault. If only TRAs put a fraction of their significant campaigning energies into this rather than telling women to move up on the bench and cede our hard-fought for protections, eh

Was also going to say -

And yet with all the risk of violence from men, the main narrative is that it is women who are a danger to them...

???

Male violence is the problem, and when a person is read as a "man dressed as a woman" then some men react with violent homophobia.

It's not the same as the violence agianst women (although linked) and it's not women who are committing this violence.

The claim that women are the cause of any violence to trans people - when it is men committing that violence - is simply the usual idea that anythign a man does is the fault of a woman. Also misogynistic, and also obscuring the real problem.

" I have no science to this but I am prepared to believe that transwomen are more likely to be targeted for random attacks and hate crimes than, for example, a white middle class woman."

It would be interesting to know this.

They may be, maybe not.

The social view of sex offences as "not violent crime" obfuscates a lot of the offences committed against women.

This I think is because the sort of things that are done to men have historically been recognised as criminal but the sort of things that are done to women are in a non violent, what do they expect, no harm done category, up to and including rape by someone known to the victim and where they don't also include "proper" violence like a punch in the face.

I have been physically attacked by strange men a couple of times, aside from all the sexual assaults, and I'm middle class and white. There isn't really a "safe" category, as it's so prevalent, although some groups of women and girls are clearly more at risk.

Sarah: I have no science to this

Yeah, you have no science. Only what the TRAs have spoonfed you.

This I think is because the sort of things that are done to men have historically been recognised as criminal but the sort of things that are done to women

This is an interesting point - see #MeToo for testimony of the scale of non-criminal but invasive, harassing, power play shit that women endure.

I haven't personally been non-sexually physically assaulted, fortunately, though of course I have a litany of sexual assault, starting in my early teens. I doubt most men or transwomen have a similar list, so perhaps there is an element of shock in discovering just how vile some men can be? As well, of course, as reading mis-gendering and deadnaming as "literal violence"

have no science to this but I am prepared to believe that transwomen are more likely to be targeted for random attacks and hate crimes than, for example, a white middle class woman

So why is it just transwomen and then a specific type of woman?

Is that because if you stop saying middle class white women and just say women that the likelyhood of being attacked goes up dramatically?

Or are you telling middle class white women on here that transwomen are a more likely target

Thing about VAW against women is that it is women and girls as a class globally who are at risk.

Some women and girls are more at risk, but none are safe.

The idea that "white middle class women" are somehow immune to bad / criminal behaviour from men is peculiar. If a girl is walking down the street and a man shouts "suck my cock" at her, he isn't interested in her socal class at all. It's not a thing. And while that may not be criminal (or maybe it is?) it is interesting that for some people verbal abuse is seen as a crime and for some it's not.

I think most men are wilfully blind to the reality of lives of women and girls, even the ones who then say they are a member of that group. Pay for cabs to get home safely? Steet harassment is empowering? But being ridiculed because of what you look like is literal violence?

Why so many women are swallowing all this is beyond me.

The idea that "white middle class women" are super privileged even compared to men and so they should "sit down" is ridiculous.

It's the "white feminist" thing where anyone who disagrees is called a "white feminist" (even when they are black ).

It's supposed to be shaming and make women stop talking.

The abuse of theories around intersectionality is revolting - appropriation. Idea that white feminists should listen to black feminists, and rich ones should listen to poor ones etc is good, obviosuly, and true, it's been mispurposed (appropriated) though.

Isn't it the very lovely Miranda Yardley who posts regularly about not being assaulted, offended or otherwise noticed while using men's loos? I know the statistics for murders across population groups was discussed a while back, does anyone brilliant know the statistics for assault/police recorded harassment across population groups?

As has been often mentioned before, it can seem as if when mtf people transition and start to pick up the crap that born women live with from early childhood it's a shocking discovery, and they don't realise what proportion of it is just 'normal' for women in terms of social and physical vulnerability.

I just wish this all led where the problem is and could lead to a concerted focus on reducing male violence.

Seems like the idea of 'intersectionality' has been subverted into a cynical means of disempowering those women who might conceivably have gained a modicum of influence in the wider world.

That's not what I'm doing Sardine. I'm a white middle class woman. I was considering whether I would be more or less fearful if I were a man dressed as a woman. I don't know if I live in a back water compared to others but I see copious amounts of male homophobia (and I don't really see transphobia as a separate thing). I'm certainly not saying white middle class women are priveleged or trying to shut anyone up. I have never ever heard anything a TRA has said other than what is quoted on here and I have never accepted any of it. I dont see things in black and white terms though and I won't apologise for that.

I don't think UK trans identified males are more risk of violence than any women, and it's obvious when they hand wave away our concerns as if it's something they've never thought about.

In the main, they are seeking validation as women, not safety.

". I have no science to this but I am prepared to believe that transwomen are more likely to be targeted for random attacks and hate crimes than, for example, a white middle class woman."

This is a load of crap though.

TW have male strength and may be subject to more male sexual attention than other men, but not to more than biological women.

Nearly all rapists are men and the vast majority of rape victims are women.

It's instructive to look at what happens with TW sexworkers vs what happens with female sexworkers - female sex workers are almost exclusively the victims in transactions with their (nearly always male) clients, whereas it's very easy to find cases of deaths of clients in transactions with transwomen sex workers.

E.g.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/drunk-tourist-collapses-dies-during-7984562
phuketwan.com/tourism/phuket-ladyboy-kills-punchy-italian-tourist-12383/
www.chiangraitimes.com/pattaya-ladyboy-assaults-irishman-with-high-heeled-shoe.html
pattayatoday.net/news/news-from-around-pattaya/danish-tourist-assaulted/
phuketwan.com/tourism/phuket-englishman-turns-high-heel-13628/
www.pattayamail.com/news/ladyboy-uses-his-high-heeled-shoe-to-attack-polish-woman-45839
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3558652/Thai-police-warn-gangs-ladyboys-targeting-tourists-wave-muggings-German-man-attacked-robbed.html

There are certainly NOT a similar volume of reports of violent female prostitutes in Thailand.

The idea that TW are at equal risk to white middle class women is frankly ludicrous.

The risk, for example, of being the victim of transphobic murder in the UK is essentially zero. No transgender people are killed at all in most years, and there are no known cases of transphobic murder in at least the last decade.

On the other hand at least a hundred 'white middle class women' are killed every year by their partners. 50% of women murder victims were killed by their partners. For men the figure is just 3%.

Men kill men. Men kill women.

But don't make insulting comparisons between transwomen and 'white middle class women'. It's basically the same argument that MRA/TRAs use about 'white middle class women' being privileged.

The privilege to be murdered by your husband.

My understanding of the data that exists on violence against transwomen in the UK is that they are less likely than men to be assaulted, and where they are assaulted it is usually transwomen who are involved in sex work. And, repeating because it can't be said enough, the violence is coming from MEN not FEMINISTS

Also it helps that transphobia plus crime is counted as a hate crime, while misogyny isn't.

I don't want to be a human shield for a TIM. Trans should campaign for their own spaces.

X-post with TerfinUSA's excellent post

there are no known cases of transphobic murder in at least the last decade

I think it's not yet clear whether the murder at Heathrow earlier in the year should be classified as an instance of transphobic murder

www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/tributes-paid-to-victim-found-stabbed-to-death-in-hotel-near-heathrow-a3796261.html

OleannasWimple, most transgender murder victims are sex workers. Transphobia is IMMEDIATELY raised, like the second the case is publicised.

But there's NEVER any mention of misogyny when female sex workers are killed.

Not only that, the transgender victim is accorded FAR MORE dignity than a woman would be.

Hersi was found dead in a cheap hotel in Hounslow and got lots of humanising detail in the reports.

Murdered female sex workers are described simply as 'prostitutes'

Specifically there is NOTHING to suggest that Hersi's murder was transphobic, but it's automatically suggested, as if people are murdering transgender people constantly, so transphobia is the default explanation.

It's nonsense and it should be repudiated.