"Nobody asked women"

[Juells]

I woke up muzzily thinking about the accusations that Mumsnet is a hotbed of hatred and transphobia, and what popped into my head, as if on a billboard in ten foot high letters was

NOBODY ASKED WOMEN

That's it, really. I'm not a feminist, have never belonged to a feminist group or organisation, I'm live-and-let-live, tolerant, neither left nor right... but nobody asked women before deciding that our safe spaces should be shared.

Nobody asked women about the Girl Guides new policy. Nobody asked women if it was OK to make women's toilets gender neutral, while leaving men's single sex. Nobody asked women if they minded sharing changing rooms in swimming pools.

The only place women have to talk about the subject is Mumsnet, and it seems to be under threat as a result.

Will decisions be made about Northern Ireland without asking the people living there? Like hell they will. But not only will women not be asked, they won't be allowed to even discuss it if some people have their way.

Nobody asked women.

Well, decisions on how faith can be manifested were decided by those outside the DP faith, so no the precedent was set then.

Now, you probably thought that was right, because the certain aspects ran counter to another group. So you support the approach, but don''t like it when you are the larger and less oppressed minority.

Well, decisions on how faith can be manifested were decided by those outside the DP faith, so no the precedent was set then

Huh?

What's a DP faith?

WTF is the DP faith? 😂

WTF has how faith is being manifested got to do with anything? 😂

WTF has levels of oppression got to do with anything? 😂

I'm not oppressed, and I fucking don't intend to be either.

The larger and less oppressed minority? Women. White males are the smaller and more oppressed minority in the UK. I did not know this.

I thought I had missed something then....

Soon there will be men's toilets, ladies toilets & gender neutral toilets... etc

That's is a good point. I have never been asked (yeor known any questions asked

Soon there will be men's toilets, ladies toilets & gender neutral toilets... etc

Did you not see the recent thread discussing the toilet situation in various universities? The Women's and Disabled have been made gender neutral. The Men's remain a sacred space.

Oops wrong button.. I wonder what would come of a survey if there was one put out to women and one put out to men... changing rooms don't bother me (as long as there are cubicles)

Toilets i think they should be separate, but in saying that if I have been out and the women's are over flowing... which happens often i have been known to run into the men's.. so actually I'm not really sure?

Juells no I didn't see it. The disabled a neutral space..

DP is an interloping typo.

And how 'competing' protected characteristics exist in the public sphere was sorted with regard to faith and homophobia, and it was not the faith groups who defined it. No one asked them.

It was the more oppressed group which defined the situation.

And of course the comparison here is not women to privileged men. It is trans v non-trans and they are the smaller and more oppressed minority.

How do you know 'nobody asked women' how do you know it wasn't women who made these decisions?

I work in government and whilst my own building doesn't have gender neutral toilets, other buildings I've been to do. Hasn't bothered me one iota. What do you do in the toilet, other than go to a private cubicle, do your business and wash your hands?

I understand this is more than just toilets but I'm just not sure that the blanket statement 'nobody asked women' is correct. You can't possibly know that - there isn't going to be a public consultation on every single thing in every single place so naturally, you wouldn't be aware if questions were asked or not.

This came up when I googled gender neutral toilets, and gave me a snigger...
www.collegetimes.com/news/irish-university-gender-neutral-toilets-150730

"With universities often acting as the vanguard of broader societal movements, these sweeping changes surely mark the beginning of the end for gender-specific rooms. While the latent prudishness and deeply embedded sexual shame in Irish culture, as well as just sheer tradition, seem to justify the existence of bathrooms segregated by gender, it's a deeply bizarre idea."

Mr McNab is so woke that he's stratospheric 🤣

This needs to be a hashtag.

Interested to read you say you're not feminist. Feminists aren't necessarily radical, they just want fairness between the sexes, not extra special treatment....e.g. for women to be asked... you sound like a feminist, and I think that's great.

Juells no I didn't see it. The disabled a neutral space..

It isn't about being a neutral space, it's about Disabled toilets being lost because they're being turned into Gender Neutral Restrooms.

Except people/government did consult with religious leaders over gay rights. This is why we firstly had civil partnerships rather than marriage, and why now we have marriage equality, but churches are exempt from having to provide marriage services equally. Religious leaders were asked - they didn't always get their own way, but were consulted and their opinions were taken into consideration.

I don't agree with a lot of the panic around trans people on here, but I do think the lack of consideration how this will effect woman (and if there's any "opt outs" needed/practical) says a lot about how little many people value woman's need for safe spaces, or indeed need to have an opinion.

@Banana8080

Interested to read you say you're not feminist.

Up until now in my life there hasn't been anything that affected me because of my sex , so rather selfishly I haven't thought much about it ☹️

Like the idea of the hashtag - it simply encapsulates the issue so all can understand - no jargon.

Cos no one did - it's a damning indictment of policy by stealth and political incompetence. A veritable hot potato. And testament to how weaponised social media can be for minority, financial, vested interests. How quickly cultic dynamics and undue influence can be used to mind control.

Nobody has asked women about these changes even when they have said they will consult with women.

The political parties are all talking about changing the Gender Recognition Act to include men who identify as women in the category of women, and in practice this is happening in many public spaces.

If it doesn't happen, those organisations not facilitating it face the same vociferous and aggressive activists as the ones attacking Mumsnet over the last few days. So Primark asked a person to show documentation to prove they were trans before letting them use the women's changing area, which they are currently allowed to do under the law, and faced a barrage of tweets for it to force them to allow men into women only areas.

The Labour Party is already allowing trans people on all women shortlists. Although Corbyn promised there would be discussion within the party about this, it has not been discussed at conference and the women who have asked to meet with the Labour leadership have been ignored. Worse, women who have made it clear that they are opposed to the inclusion of trans people on all women shortlists have been witch hunted, thereby stifling discussion generally and women's voices specifically.

I would agree that nobody asked women, and more importantly that when women do speak up they are being silenced. In fact anyone, male or female, who says they don't believe that people can change sex or that men should not be allowed into women's spaces faces the possibility of being accused of hate speech. Even accidentally saying the wrong thing can lead to accusations of bigotry. One woman has been threatened with contempt of court if she didn't remember to refer to the person who attacked her as a woman, even though it must've been obvious to everyone in the room that the person was a man.

So not only is the poster correct in saying women haven't been asked about this very important issue, but any discussion by anyone is being stifled to the extent that we are entering a looking glass world where words cease to mean anything but what you are told they mean. Some women and men are trying to speak up, but Mumsnet is one of the last places where one can do this and it's under pressure.

I like the hashtag suggestion. Let me try it on...
#nobodyaskedwomen

oh yeah, that works! :)

I still don't know what DP is.
Neither do I know what an interloping typo is. A typographical error that shouldn't be there? What should be there then?
Speak English ffs. The world's gone mad.

Excellent post OP. Couldn’t agree with you more.

I have to say I don't think this works. There are far more women in Parliament than there used to be, women in the civil service including government lawyers, plenty of women in local councils and schools. It's simply not true that no women were consulted or involved in legislative changes or changes in practice and to say otherwise doesn't make any sense.

It would be like saying that changes to marriage law were made without involving religious leaders, when in fact religious leaders were heavily involved with the changes and also have special seats in Parliament because of their religious status. Wouldn't it, Moggy.

The fact is that not all women agree about this.

Also helps to deal in facts. There was consultation with a variety of faiths around gay rights. A variety of faiths have exemptions with regard to both gay rights and womens rights. Whatever I may think of that its still true. I could try to be a catholic priest but I would not be permitted. My atheism might be an obstacle too. So faith is actually a good example of where exemptions exist. As women perhaps we could ask for the same consideration.