"Nobody asked women"

[Juells]

I woke up muzzily thinking about the accusations that Mumsnet is a hotbed of hatred and transphobia, and what popped into my head, as if on a billboard in ten foot high letters was

NOBODY ASKED WOMEN

That's it, really. I'm not a feminist, have never belonged to a feminist group or organisation, I'm live-and-let-live, tolerant, neither left nor right... but nobody asked women before deciding that our safe spaces should be shared.

Nobody asked women about the Girl Guides new policy. Nobody asked women if it was OK to make women's toilets gender neutral, while leaving men's single sex. Nobody asked women if they minded sharing changing rooms in swimming pools.

The only place women have to talk about the subject is Mumsnet, and it seems to be under threat as a result.

Will decisions be made about Northern Ireland without asking the people living there? Like hell they will. But not only will women not be asked, they won't be allowed to even discuss it if some people have their way.

Nobody asked women.

Juells this is what I was thinking... surely an extra toilet should be put in or built for gender neutral..

I wonder if they would make a cubicle for gender neutral in the men's toilets?

Or would the gender neutral women not want to use it as it's in the men's?

For sheer fairness, if the definition of 'women' is going to be changed, and our rights altered, there should be consultation with women. There hasn't been. Who decided that we all have to say transwomen are women, or be guilty of hate speech? Has anybody here been asked? Have any of the numerous women's organisations in the UK been asked for input on that? Do you think that organisations representing TiMs haven't been consulted? TiFs probably haven't been consulted, because 'fuck them, who cares'. The only people who matter in this discussion, the only people who'll be consulted, are men.

Ummm... with regards to the op...

They did ask the people of NI about brexit and we said NO to it, and yet it's gonna happen anyway.

#justsaying

As a sort-of-analogy, you can't just suddenly 'arrive' and decide you're a Blackfoot or a Sioux, you have to provide DNA proof. They're allowed to protect their identity.

It really makes me despair, and makes me feel relieved that both my daughters have decided not to have children, that after all the fighting women have done in the past century to establish ourselves as human beings with equal rights, and deserving of equal respect, it's all being erased - again by men. We're not even being allowed to define ourselves.

They did ask the people of NI about brexit and we said NO to it, and yet it's gonna happen anyway.

You were outvoted by the rest of the UK, but you did get to vote.

As a few others have said, some of the people driving this are women.
Women are often HR professionals making company policy on gender matters.
Women are not a hive mind.
You only have to look on twitter to see the many many women campaigning for pro trans.

I am still wondering why some women support self id. I know some of them have come on here and tried to explain, but I am still missing that piece of the puzzle. Usually it is something along the lines of 'it has been happening for years', 'transgender people have it hard and we want to be nice', 'who cares about toilets anyway' or 'nothing bad will happen, look at other countries'. And all of them cannot answer or want to admit that no one anywhere has done a risk analysis or done followup of consequence of self id.

They can't even in clear concise terminolgy describe how a self id law would work combined with the right to protection of the characteristic of biological sex. If you can't describe it, how can you make it a law?

As a sort-of-analogy, you can't just suddenly 'arrive' and decide you're a Blackfoot or a Sioux, you have to provide DNA proof. They're allowed to protect their identity.

You can't pretend you are Stilton unless you were made in a specific county [Derbyshire, Leicestershire, Nottinghamshire].

Cheese is more protected than the concept of 'women'.

I never classed myself as a feminist, and I actually groaned when I read on here 'feminism chat" had it's own section. When I joined mumsnet I was one of those who defended gender nuetral, trans rights and used transphobia to describe even asking simple questions.

Then I started reading here how "old school" trans were treated by trans, how women were treated by trans, what was Henning on Twitter etc and I had my #peaktrans moment.

They haven't asked women what we think and have been quite forceful in shutting us up. From having the police arrest and investigate feminists for repeating suzie greens public statements, for investigating feminists who say they will defend themselves if attacked by mta.

While it's true that most of the changes were complimented by women in government, that just proves that they are Handmaidens interested in a couple of extra votes next time and not in defending women.

They won't ask us as they already know the answer.

I am still wondering why some women support self id. I know some of them have come on here and tried to explain, but I am still missing that piece of the puzzle.

Any women I've spoken to about it have initially been "it makes no difference to us, why can't we just be nice?". Then it turns out that they think all transgender people are transexual, have had hormones and surgery and lived as women for years. Their opinions change once they find out that self-id will change all that, and allow men who haven't had surgery or hormones to have access to women's toilets and dv shelters and every other space that women have fought for.

The whole point of asking women would be to ask women as a class, collectively, so while those saying that they're find with the status quo are perfectly entitled to feel that way it doesn't actually mean that there isn't a problem or that other women don't need to be consulted too.

Did you not see the recent thread discussing the toilet situation in various universities? The Women's and Disabled have been made gender neutral. The Men's remain a sacred space.

Just for the record in our university men’s toilets were made gender neutral but there are still women’s, men’s and gender neutral toilets. Btw the men are not happy about losing toilets. I have not heard one happy person on the issue.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

Thought this might be a good place for the petition link

What do you do in the toilet, other than go to a private cubicle, do your business and wash your hands?

Actually im glad you asked...

1. pee
2. poop
3. buy pads/tampons
4. change pads/tampons/mooncups
5. wash blood off our hands
6. breastfeed
7. pump milk
8. take medication (fertility drugs, shots etc)
9. change underwear/clothes
10. deal with incontinence
11. pee on a stick
12. miscarry
13. waters breaking
14. we go to compose ourselves in private if we're having a tough time at work
15. get away from men (work, bars, clubs etc)
16. take young children/the elderly to the toilet

... To name a few and im sure im missing things.

I am so fucking sick of the "you only pee and poop" brigade because we dont! We are not men. We are nothing like men. We are women and WE HAVE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BIOLOGY AND NEEDS!

Also, you know what? Even if all I am doing is peeing maybe I just don't want to do that with a man in the next cubicle.

Learn to take no for an answer.

@lifechangesforever
How do you know 'nobody asked women' how do you know it wasn't women who made these decisions?
Because the consultation papers have been published. Women's groups and the Prison Service spoke against the proposals and were dismissed.
Which shows there was an agenda decided before the consultation.

I work in government and whilst my own building doesn't have gender neutral toilets, other buildings I've been to do. Hasn't bothered me one iota. What do you do in the toilet, other than go to a private cubicle, do your business and wash your hands?

Is it so difficult for you to see that a unisex toilet in a government building is not going to be the same as a public toilet?
Women cant travel in public spaces such as the Tube without being molested. Unisex public spaces are associated with increased risk for women.
Its why we've been asking for single sex hospital wards for decades.

Look at the list posted by InLoveWithDavidTennant.
600 women miscarry every day, many of them in a public toilet.

Try to show some compassion and empathy.

Private Eye
"As for Vanessa's assumption that no one minds them using the toilet; well that's just an assumption.Women have long being asked to squash down qualms about their personal safety for fear of being seen as unkind. Did Vanessa ever think to ask them and accept the answer?"

Cheese is more protected than the concept of 'women'.
Learn to take no for an answer.
600 women miscarry every day, many of them in a public toilet.

Such wisdom