Apparently men can get PND too

[ItsLikeRainOnYourWeddingDay]

No - they get depressed. They cannot have PND. The clue is in the bloody name - POST NATAL. No man can ever be post natal.

https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/olivia-spencer/postnatal-depression-gay-bb_5857968.html

I read about some research showing that fatherhood lowers testosterone, so there may be a hormonal element in depression men experience as new fathers.

www.scientificamerican.com/article/fatherhood-lowers-testosterone-keeps-dads-at-home/

the problem is that using a term which is supposed to be for the depression experienced by mothers due to giving birth.

But that is a misinterpretation of the term. For example, the NHS website makes no mention of a giving birth being a prerequisite for developing PND.

Hormones are not mentioned at all in the possible causes, and this perception is actually debunked in the myths, along with the misconception that it is an exclusively female issue.

It suggests that 4/100 men may suffer from this. So that questions the idea of the ‘12th rule of misogyny’ being applicable here.

In contrast, Postpartum Psychosis is explained as an entirely a female issue, that occurs as a result of giving birth. Not taking away from the seriousness of PND at all, but it is markedly more dangerous.

They are two separate diagnoses and while one can lead to the next, the terms PND and PP should not be used interchangeably.

If you epwant to specify that something occurs after actually giving birth, surely the term is post-parturative?

Antenatal and postnatal refer to the the period before and after birth and are totally correctly applied to anyone.

I think the belittling of MH issues in anyone is wrong. Doing so on the basis of a non-standard interpretation of of language, in order to belittle some patients is really wrong.

Out and proud feminist, but I agree with others who don't think you can say this is off-limits to men.

There's an ante-natal ward and a post- natal ward. Doesn't mean the ward has given birth.

Technically post partum means after bringing forth. So I suppose if a man brings forth summat he should go right ahead and name his depression should he suffer it post partum.
11th rule of misogyny: whatever women suffer from, it is worse when it happens to men.

No. Not worse. But equal when it occurs- albeit less frequently than it occurs in women.

Male postpartum depression affects women negatively.

Denying it doesn’t help women.

I really struggle with these types of threads because I worry that they give fuel to those who want to label feminists as ‘man-haters’.

I see misogyny, often. I’m aware of the patriarchy at play, often. But I don’t think this is either. I think it is hard enough for men to seek help for mh without being accused of misogyny as well.

Are we allowed to sympathise and support men with breast cancer, or is this also appropriation and misogyny?*

Feminism is meant to make society better for everyone. Let’s not make this thread about belittling men who already struggle to get help for mh. Because in that sense, they too are victims of the patriarchy and toxic masculinity. Big boys don’t cry.

*I’m being facetious.

Are we allowed to sympathise and support men with breast cancer, or is this also appropriation and misogyny?*
That is a despicable thing to say in response to my facetious comment.

No thebewilderness, it is well acknowledged that men leave breast cancer unchecked for too long because they find it embarrassing and humiliating.

I think this thread serves the same purpose to male PND sufferers and is also despicable.

I think it is a worthwhile comment, especially if it provokes such a strong reaction.

Physical health and mental health are both very real.

Hi OP. What are your thoughts now?

Agree that although it’s fine to highlight mental health risks for men - or people adopting - on becoming parents, using the term PND is unhelpful, especially when postnatal services for women are often inadequate.

I actually think breast cancer in men is an interesting comparison as although equally devastating it is a different experience for a woman (just my opinion) I lost both breasts at 26 and my ovaries at 46. It's far more aggressive for young women as it likes to ride on oestrogen and spread through the body.
My fertility, femininity and early menopause have been life changing and now my daughters are going to have to be tested but my sons have never been.
My daughters cannot take most contraception and may one day face awful choices as I had to.
I've met men who have had surgery for bc and asthetically they don't look anywhere near as bad as I do

using the term PND is unhelpful

Why is it unhelpful though? If the causes are the same, the symptoms are the same and the treatments are the same, why would we convolute the issue by giving the same condition a male as well as a female name?

I’m reasonably confident that ‘postnatal depression’ is a mix of; an existential crisis related to how gendered role expectations are intensified by having a child, the intensity and isolation of how we do parenting, partly a reaction to gendered stereotypes, partly a reaction to the experience of birth/pregnancy.

I believe fathers could in theory be affected by all of those things apart from birth/pregnancy but they will be different.

I suspect being depressed after having a child is probably a thing but I cynically suspect this ‘men get PND’ thing is going to be about abandoning women like when my husband ran away to work and justified it by saying ‘I was on the verge of a nervous breakdown!’ Despite doing less of the shit and having an easy out.

I am absolutely sure that the medical model re mental illness is a terrible way to approach treatment of PND.

*they will be differently affected I mean....

E.g. I’m very confident they won’t be doing the main care or the shitwork

Actually my DH depression was kicked off after having DD, 7 years on he still suffers with depression. Saying he can't get ill just because he didn't carry the baby is complete rubbish. We live with this condition everyday, I can assure you it's real!

The suicide thing....

I think we should be very careful about making too many assumptions (often based on gendered stereotypes) about why men attempt less often but succeed more often....

No one is saying men cannot get depression due to fatherhood. But they don’t carry a foetus or give birth, so it’s depression, not PND.

It’s unhelpful because using the same term potentially negates womens health issues and services, which are already often woeful.

This isn't (or shouldn't be) about men vs women. It's about the person who gave birth vs the one who didn't. The same would apply if the woman who gave birth had a female partner - of course the partner can get depression following the birth, regardless of their sex, and of course that should be recognised and taken seriously.

But it's nonsensical to pretend there's no difference between giving birth and having a partner who gave birth. Whether or not hormones have a role, there's still birth injuries, possibly causing ongoing pain and dysfunction; there's changes to body shape and appearance that affect self-esteem; there's breastfeeding (or not being able to); the different expectations. It's just not the same.

I know some will say it doesn't matter, because depression is depression regardless of the cause, and anyone can experience pain and body changes for a variety of reasons, etc. And yes, but lumping it all in together as "PND" seems like an attempt to erase the biological reality of pregnancy and childbirth. It's recreating women's invisible labour (literally, in this case), under a veneer of progressive equality.

But the problem you then run into BlackBetha is you start taking the PND label away from women like me, whose post natal depression was caused by reasons that could equally affect a man, i.e. reasons that had nothing to do with actually giving birth, breastfeeding or hormones.

In the current landscape ‘men get PND too!’ will absolutely become another tool of oppression. It already is. It is already used as a way to get women who have just given birth to prioritise men’s feelings and problems.

As a statement of a type of fact it may be more or less unproblematic. Trouble is it is never just facts.

Of course men can get PND, not only for all the reasons to do with lack of dsleep, extra stress, the huge shock of becoming a parent, but also for many, the trauma of witnessing a traumatic north where they felt completely helpless and unable to do anything other than stand back and watch their partner and child go through what is, for some, a terrifying, sometimes life threatening experience.
As a pp said, men suffering from PND does not in any way undermine women's suffering.

Also in some ways I think PND is already used to medicalise (and therefore make women the problem with) sexism.