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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is a woman's gender/sex viewpoint mostly age-related?

80 replies

Terfulike · 01/05/2018 19:18

Given the thread on BBC WhatsApp groups, is it an age issue? Is it related to young women having less experience of concrete sex-related experiences such as motherhood, rape, maternity leave impact on career etc. And how would these aspects be communicated to young women? (I'm 53 with 4 kids)

OP posts:
BrashCandicoot · 02/05/2018 07:33

I think age and motherhood were my main factors. I think being away from the university helps too - I’ve had conversations with old uni friends and my sister recently where we were able to talk about being women, and in turn how while trans-women have struggles of their own, they are emphatically not the same as living as a woman. Neither my uni friends or my sister are outward rad fems, Id say just normal women. One conversation prompted by talking about when she wanted to start a family, and having to find a new job first because her current employer makes it impossible for women to return from maternity leave, and another started by “oh so Debbie has new girlfriend... she’s trans and hasn’t started any therapy yet...” “so a straight guy calling themself a lesbian then... with a penis...” “yeah... and very obviously a man, like 6’4” with very masculine features...” “ah.”.

It makes me think that a lot of women very quickly get past the “well we can just be nice about it”, or are inwardly sceptical, especially when they consider their own experience of being a woman and how it’s impacted on their career etc.

Excellent post barracker

LaSqrrl · 02/05/2018 07:57

Yes, excellent post Barracker

And gradually I grew up, and realised that the illusion of equality doesn't outlast your twenties. And that the 'special girls' are just a handy tool for men to use to explain why most women are just a bit inferior, really.

Even I had a touch (or rather blindness?) about that really in my early 20s. Because yes, I always did outperform 'the boys', from primary school into early work (20s). But at the same time, I was also a proto-radfem. I think the key there is that the full reality of the discrimination does not really hit you unless you are deemed 'not worthy' (ie 'fat' 'ugly' generally 'unfuckable'). Whilst you are getting cookie crumbs, you think the whole discrimination thing is just a bit of a slight tilt, instead of an outrageous injustice system.

However, I cannot give YW a total free pass, swallowing the whole 'men can be women too'. Shit, that is a whole 'nother brain failure level.

AngryAttackKittens · 02/05/2018 08:00

Watch this comment get deleted! I honestly wonder if it's a fetish for some of them. If so I just want to say, oh sweetheart, you know that there are men who wear makeup and so on who don't think they're women, right? Shag one of them instead, it's much more fun.

Kyanite · 02/05/2018 08:21

It's age related to an extent because this new wave is coming from Social Media...the Social Justice Warriors on reddit, tumblr and youtube.

MumOfThrMoos · 02/05/2018 10:13

Great post @BarrackerBarmer

I have always been a gender critical feminist since a child as I witnessed first hand the violent abuse and coercive control inflicted on my mother by my father.

My father was an alcoholic who, although a bit of a polymath and great at his chosen vocation, ended living in a caravan on a farm.

When my mother tried to take over the mortgage payments (as my father was incapable of paying them regularly) she was told at first she couldn't because she was female.

She did everything- DIY, working, paying the mortgage, renting out rooms to lodgers, bringing up her children. I knew all this men are innately better at x, y or z was bollocks.

So, although my analysis of what crap gender is started young it was as a result of somewhat precocious experience.

Even still, although I saw that the world was structured in favour of men as a young woman I still harboured the idea that I would overcome it because I was special!

Fundamentally, my view is that it is experience that makes you gender critical and that the older you get the more sexism and discrimination on the basis of your biology you experience.

MipMipMip · 02/05/2018 13:00

I hadn't recognised it before but yes, special girl here too who got ill and failed miserably at it. Clearly the ones who didn't succeed weren't really trying, right?

Sorry. Sad

moofolk · 02/05/2018 13:10

Yep agree with the special girl stuff. I thought I could do anything and it took ages to clock that 'not like the other girls' is really chauvinistic, bit took pride in it.
Was very much into individual choice, and argued for pornography. Shudder.

It's the lack of real life knowledge and buying the lie that feminism has won and sex inequality is all but over. Definitely, definitely, more radical now.

I think something twofold has happened to create the gulf between younger and older women as we stand now. The first is what we've outlined as the radical tendencies that come from experience and losing that naive optimism of youth, the second is the general rightward drift of society which has privileged individual feelings and rights to be our authentic selves and make our own agentival choices (bleurgh) over a class level analysis which leads to fighting for the common good and a sense of solidarity with other women.

ErrolTheDragon · 02/05/2018 13:25

Yes, that 'special girl' thing ... so, I was the only girl in my chemistry and maths A level set, one other in double maths - between us we left the boys trailing. It wasn't till I was doing my PhD and engaged in a discussion about 'feminism' on a pre www bulletin board forum (on which I was the only actual female) that I questioned why the heck there was this imbalance. That's when I realised it wasn't all about me. The fact that I'd never personally felt disadvantaged by being female was irrelevant, and I rejected my shallow 'I'm all right Jill' stance.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 02/05/2018 14:26

Regarding young university age women (in the last decade) I do feel for them because I went to uni before there was a strategic take over of all feminist/lgb spaces by white men claiming to be (lesbian) women who are 'like black women'- meaning doubly oppressed, both as 'trans' and as 'women', along with their unique condition of being too fragile and explosive to have this take-over -appropriation-style challenged.

Young instinctively feminist women are all being mind-controlled, prevented from meeting anywhere without men present, leading them and dominating and are treading on eggshells. It is a tragedy.

2rebecca · 02/05/2018 14:32

Like Errol. One of 3 girls doing A level physics and had little in common with most girls at school who I decided were "shallow". I was deep because I wrote crap poetry and was often miserable.
I had more female friends at uni where there were more women like me but I still had special snowflake tendencies until my late 20s.

TERFousBreakdown · 02/05/2018 17:57

I'm 36 and childfree by something-between-accident-and-choice and I've definitely become more steadfast in my feminism over the years.

Personal turning points included studying a STEM subject as one of less than five women in my year, getting married (and divorced when I just couldn't take the BS any longer), landing a job in a male dominated sector and again, a few years later, becoming a woman manager in a male dominated sector.

Before all that happened I would have identified as vaguely feminist but my personal experience of misogyny was largely limited to cat calling and the likes. Today, I find myself touting loud and proud feminism on every possible occasion and actively pushing the women I mentor to acknowledge and fight gender as a force that harms them.

What happened? Tons of sexist bullshit did!

Pyjaaaaamas · 03/05/2018 01:53

I’m uni undergrad age and most of my peers are “woke”

WomaninGreen · 03/05/2018 10:43

what's the "special girl" and "Belle" business?

I'm really surprised to see some posters have come to feminism so late.

BarrackerBarmer · 03/05/2018 11:39

It's just an observation of mine WomanInGreen.

The idea that so long as a few token examples exist of women and girls achieving what men do, then there mustn't be any real external barriers to the majority of women. The vast differential in success between the sexes must be explained by the innate inadequacy of the 'other girls'.

A little like "there has been one black president/ two female prime ministers, so racism/sexism doesn't exist".

You see the same trope in Disney movies, (see: Belle in Beauty and the Beast) where the female protagonist is 'different' from the other silly girls, she is special; they are just pointless.

Its just another flavour of "women are generally crappier than men".
It comes in several similar flavours:
"the chosen one"
"The tomboy"
"The smart girl"

But all of them are about reinforcing the untrue idea that GENERALLY all women could achieve because there are no real barriers - if the special girls can do it there can't possibly be barriers can there? So the rest are either incapable or lazy.

It's very enticing to believe you are remarkable and different from the crowd. You either come out as innately superior to your peers or harder-working. You get cookies from the blokes for not moaning about sexism. And they tolerate you because you get to be their token "I'm not sexist, look, here's a woman I've accepted which proves it.

At some point the 'special girls' might start questioning why the sieve of so-called merit is sifting out 99% of women but letting through 99% of men, and whether they want to do something about a system where it looks awfully like women's merit is being crushed and men's magnified.

GaraMedouar · 03/05/2018 12:03

I agree - definitely I have become more strongly feminist with age and experiences. I am middle-aged and had two LTRs where I was breadwinner, housekeeper, mother etc - until I could take no more bullshit. My eyes were opened. The trans issues for me are very 'emperor's new clothes ' . I seem to look in from outside with my mouth open wide generally.
I have a DD so she is being brought up to question , see the feminist point of view. I want her to be equipped and go into the adult world with her eyes already opened not wait 20 years before she sees the reality .

WomaninGreen · 03/05/2018 15:14

Thank you Barracker

I'm going to have to think carefully about handling these cultural tropes - my own experience has been in female dominated workplaces. Clearly I have been lucky.

leyat · 03/05/2018 15:23

I think women tend to become more feminist with age, but i do think that more young women will start challenging liberal feminism before long. Although I think there are tons of older libfems too, as well as loads of young GC/radfems...

DairyisClosed · 03/05/2018 15:35

I think that c it is about experience. Most women don't realise the true impact of female biology until they have experienced pregnacy/rape/motherhood/infertility/lack of access if adequate medical care relating to female health ptoblems/female health problems. Moody younger women are living in a bubble where the only difference between them and their male peers is how they dress/having periods/bring cat called. Men and women aren't particularly different until they start using their reproductive organs.

smithsinarazz · 03/05/2018 22:41

Personal viewpoint, others are available.

Like many girls, I spent a lot of my adolescence being told (and feeling) that being a girl was a bit crap. Sexism was the oppressor, and girls were pushed down by it. But there was a solution: don't be like a girl.

Being a tomboy is more endearing than being a girly girl. That's soppy. A girl can wear the trousers. A girl can do science and maths. A girl can be the boss. A girl can be called Bob and be an actor; feminine endings are belittling.

Now the bits about being able to do science and maths were, of course, entirely positive; but some of the rest of the narrative could at least be interpreted to mean that the best way of being a girl was to be a quasi-boy. Sex, unfortunately, got in the way of this, if you fancied men: you wanted, naturally, to ingratiate yourself with boys, so you fell in with their plans. I sat in dingy student rooms listening to male voices droning on and thought I was low in the hierarchy because I was Smiths rather than because I was female. I slept with those that'd have me. I didn't entirely succeed at this, but I tried to be A Good Chapess. A Ladette. What Gillian Flynn would later describe as a Cool Girl. Complaining about sexism would've been so passe; weren't we all mates together? (Perhaps the only girls that didn't fall for that shite were lesbians, but I didn't know any at the time, so far as I knew.)

I did not complain about my skinny little boobless slightly-wonky very spotty body, because worrying about "beauty" is so girly. I simply felt the pain of not being what I thought I ought to be.

Years passed. I always said I wasn't going to have kids, partly because I'd seen my highly-educated friends and family apparently ditch all their aspirations and resign themselves to wiping arses and singing nursery rhymes. How could they? Weren't they letting the side down? I wasn't. I had a job, like grown-ups do. I was bloody miserable, but at least I was playing the game.

And then at the age of 41, as a colleague put it - "I grew a human."

That skinny little frame burgeoned, blossomed, it formed and nurtured another person. It twisted and squeezed and spat him forth, perfect and damp as a conker from its shell. It fed him. He lived upon my breast. I was Mother Earth. And I was welcomed into the warm and slightly sticky embrace of the cabal of mothers.

I never wished I was a boy: a certain honesty forced me to admit that a male Smiths would not be a Smiths at all. And to be honest, I was always pretty repelled by the offshoot of feminism which tries to make out that being born female is nothing but ill luck, condemning its victims to Women's Problems. I didn't see why being a woman should be all that much worse than being a man.

But only since my son was born have I really come to believe that being a woman isn't just tolerable, but amazing. And that applies to all women, mothers or not. We are amazing. Human beings with the wit and wisdom of men, but far, far less of their aggression and silly who-can-piss-the-highest competitiveness. We bring people together. We collaborate and give and are not ashamed to love. And some of us grow humans.. A woman is not just a man in a dress. She's a hell of a lot better than that.

I still like men, by the way. I still like anyone who's good crack, including my friend Lizzie, the artist formerly known as Steve. But I'm just an awful lot prouder of not being one.

TheRagingGirl · 14/05/2018 13:56

I'm almost 60, and I've been a feminist since I was about 12. I look back & think maybe I was lucky - the much reviled "Women's Lib" gave me so so much, including a set of analytical tools to pull apart sexism, chauvinism, and the patriarchy.

And I'm living proof that thinking is as important as life experience - I've never wavered from my feminism - it's part of my career & my professional work. And the radical critique of masculinity that I read here is now catching up with the way I've always thought.

There've been personal costs: I never had children because I never found a man who wanted to make a family with me. Most men respond to radical feminism by telling me that I "hate men."

But it's been worth it.

EmpressOfSpartacus · 14/05/2018 14:08

I'm in my mid-40s, lesbian & enthusiastically childfree.

So I haven't had all the same experiences as other women: no pregnancy or bringing up kids, no worry about contraception or the effects of maternity leave on my career. But I have had enough of them, and I have got more radical with age. I think I started noticing around the time of Tara Hudson, then realised what effect transactivism was having on lesbians and peaked quite quickly from there.

SewSwiftly · 14/05/2018 14:10

In in my early 30s and have pretty much always been very feminist. I could only put a name to it when u did A level sociology. I have wondered if other women my age and younger tend more towards liberal feminism because they grew up in an age of such hyper sexualisation of women and girls. I think that really skews how you think of yourself, and gender relations as a whole.

SweetheartNeckline · 14/05/2018 14:35

I am in my late 20s. I'm GC but not a rad fem - I'm a SAHM and although I dedicate quite a few hours a week to helping individual women (breastfeeding support and other baby related community roles, childcare for friends who work etc) I don't suppose I am radical as I do nothing except the odd letter writing / petition signing to help women as a sex class. I am beholden to (and complicit with) the patriarchy. I don't feel a victim but it has... shaped... me and my life.

I am able to view things more dispassionately (even as I myself become more passionate about feminism) as I get older. The trans debate isn't about nasty people being bigoted. The gender pay gap isn't just about part timers and maternity leave. Catcalling or a man apropos of nothing telling you they'd like to shag you isn't a complement. I suppose some would say it's about becoming more small c conservative with age, but I have become more liberal about lots of things, especially social justice, distribution of wealth etc. For example, my views on abortion have changed from pro choice within 12 weeks to pro choice full stop.

I'm finally recognising myself as a woman, part of the sex class Women with all the joy and challenges that brings, and losing the "special girl" feeling. It's liberating, but fucking scary.

ErrolTheDragon · 14/05/2018 15:27

Smiths - just wanted to say how much I liked your 'growing a human' paragraph in particular.

chocolatesun · 14/05/2018 15:29

Wow yes. I hadn’t thought of it this way but I’m sure she/life experience as a woman makes a huge difference. I’m such a different person now that I’m a mother. Having said that many women never have children and don’t ever share those experiences so it can’t just be a motherhood thing.

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