Class Dismissed

[RealityHasALiberalBias]

I'm interested in where a class-based analysis of human society clashes with identity politics and individualism, specifically with regard to feminism vs trans activism.

Trans activism and identity politics seems to be largely a middle class (and very student-based) movement, whereas the sex-based protections that radical feminists are concerned about could be argued to be of particular value to women from lower socio-economic groups. For example women's refuges and prisons.

This is broad brush, and it would be good to see if there's a discussion here, but is privilege a problem in the clash between the two sides here? White middle class students just not seeing the value of safe spaces for women, because they themselves have little need for them?

I can see from my privileged position as a white middle class woman that I'm lucky to not have a personal concern about the safety of prisons or the provision of refuges (and I hope I'll never have to), but I know they are needed because I know enough about male violence to get it.

This article rather sums up what I'm getting at here:
www.feministcurrent.com/2018/03/23/leftist-women-uk-refuse-accept-labours-attempts-silence-critiques-gender-identity/

It's a good article OP. This thread tells a similar (and alarming) story;

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3203804-The-Deptford-People-Project-and-the-impact-of-self-ID-and-transactivism-on-working-class-women

Being middle class is no protection against being abused within marriage or a long-term relationship. I attended the Freedom programme and their were a lot of us who were middle class. A lot of it was coercive control rather than being thumped as well.

Also the biggest problem with promoting our gender critical views doesn't come from students, it comes from politicians and the media who listen to tra activists whilst refusing to engage with womens groups. Often these people are themselves from working class backgrounds eg some female mps.

Furthermore, i disagree that that these students won't have to worry about such things: I somehow doubt they will feel the same way once they have had babies. They'll realise that transmen aren't women then! It's not to do with them being middle class it's to do with their inexperience.

Also, one of the main things I object to is my daughter's having to get changed in dressing rooms / share toilets / share school trip accommodation with trans women. That's not to do with class at all. In fact girl guides is rather middle class I should say.

I am half working so can't reply at length - will try to come back later!

I wholeheartedly agree that identity politics without a class analysis does nothing to redress power relations and therefore will leave the most vulnerable to power imbalance worse off.

My point wasn’t that middle class people don’t ever experience male violence, or that students won’t. It was more that middle class students (who seem to be over-represented in the identity politics movement) are not recognising how their privilege may impact on their view of the importance of women-only spaces.

The very nature of identity politics avoids a class-based analysis of inequality, and so maybe well-meaning younger people, surrounded by other well-meaning younger people in a bubble of institutional safety, are just not seeing how dangerous the world can actually be for women.

Interesting question OP.

I have sometimes worried about getting involved in the politics around this issue. As a professional woman living in a Scandinavian country, it barely has any impact on my life. I see an increase in gender neutral toilets and am aware that the school my children attend has undertaken some actions to ensure they are aligned with current thinking, but those things have little effect on my life.

However I come from a family who have been politically active, albeit in a quiet way. I look at this issue, and I see that the women most affected are those who are already victims or those for whom society in general might have little sympathy. The first group might include rape and DV victims, the second, women prisoners. And yes, I am aware those groups will overlap.

But those women have little voice. So if we don’t speak on their behalf, who will.

And those who are younger and privileged seem to have no problem with speaking up. I suspect in many cases, their idealism for a cause which I see as destructive is to a lack of perspective. When I was still at university, I remained blissfully unaware of what adult womanhood entailed.

In the workplace at first, then later at home as I became a mother, I began to understand that women and men are treated differently. It’s only now, as my children are almost grown that I actually have both the understanding of what it is to be a woman and the time to use my growing anger to act.

Agreed CAT, the women potentially most affected by the erosion of safe spaces are the ones with the least voice.

It’s possible we need more of those voices in the mix now, rather than two generations of largely middle class people going at it hammer and tongs on twitter.

That would be ideal. I believe there are victims of DV who have come to this discussion through Mumsnet. There are also some voices on Twitter who are more closely involved. I tend to follow them and try to amplify their voices more than I use my own.

But I also believe.... to misquote a classic: The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good women to do nothing.

Of course, we mustn’t take a step back, but maybe think of ways to include more voices.

I felt it was telling that some of the new TA posters on here recently have asserted things like, “everyone else in the world sees transwomen as women and are fine with self-ID, you mumsnetters are outliers”. This really, really isn’t true, and it shows how little exposure they’ve had to perspectives outside of their bubble.