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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Excellent article on the problem of transphobia

473 replies

crispbuttyfan · 30/04/2018 15:30

www.huckmagazine.com/perspectives/opinion-perspectives/mumsnet-transphobia-online/

"Regardless of intention, it seems to me that Mumsnet has allowed transphobia to become associated with their brand through their inaction. These boards have now become nothing short of echo chambers, spaces in which anti-trans rhetoric is continually employed with little objection."

The evidence is apparent throughout the feminism board.
Where lies are spread with abandon and the truth is slandered as 'gaslighting'.

OP posts:
TERFragetteCity · 01/05/2018 19:56

Temporary flounce. Betcha.

Stop it - don't get my hopes up of finding out how this transformation happens...please ;)

MadBadDaddy · 01/05/2018 20:10

Please explain to a dull lad - How is it that you are all self-policing yourselves into the ground so MN Mods won't have to police you into the ground themselves so MN does not to end up in court or worse? I haven't checked any 'Dadsnets' or whatever for similar worries or reactions (and haven't the stomach to look TBH), but I bet you a Gin they aren't worrying about how they debate or vent or their kids' futures.

(dammit, a GinGinGin)

Atalune · 01/05/2018 20:11

MN is glorious. I’ve been lurking and lurking on the feminist boards. Such great debate and clever clever minds at work. Thank you, and it has sprurned me on to write to my local MP as well as Harriet Harman.

Thank you MN

Italiangreyhound · 01/05/2018 20:39

@MsBeaujangles
"In reality, I have no doubt that great things could be achieved if the shit hot lawyers, scientists, feminists, social theorists etc from this board did gather around a table and planned a coherent lobbying campaign that pulled all of this expertise together."

So very true. I am not suit hot at much but I will make tea for you brilliant people if you do ever get around a table.

jedenfalls · 01/05/2018 21:09

Now that is Mumsnet at its finest

all round.

Thank you.. that was beautiful.

GeorgeFayne · 01/05/2018 21:41

Ok, so being many time zones away coupled with a busy morning left me with a lot to catch up on.

Bowlofbabelfish you continue to be awesome! Thank you, and congratulations on your pregnancy!

For those of you interested in the biology here, there is something I also wanted to elaborate on that has been mentioned. Giving a trans individual hormones is NOT a good example of epigenetics. Rather, it is simply testament to the incredible power of hormones.

Hormones are the chemical messengers for our bodies, and indeed, they have profound effects. Specific cells will bind hormones (at unique receptors) and the function of the cell will then respond accordingly. Yes, mumtobe, this is why facial hair follicles are stimulated to grow in females exposed to high levels of androgens and why breast tissue develops in males on estrogen. We are manipulating human physiology with pharmaceuticals.

However, what does this mean with regards to identity? If I take a drug that changes the melanin in my skin, does that change my ethnicity? If I prescribe a patient a drug to cause her periods to stop, does that mean she is no longer a woman? Of course not.

You have mentioned that you feel trans-women on hormones have more in common with women because of our “phenotypes.” (Agree with those who feel this is a poor word choice.) I am curious, though, as to which of these features you feel is most defining to womanhood. Is it breast tissue? Is it a narrow waist with gently curving hips? Is it a soft, melodic voice?

Women come in all shapes and sizes. Some have facial hair, (damn pesky hormones!). Some have deep voices and big hands. Some have broad shoulders. None of these secondary characteristics matter. To say that a biological male becomes more similar to us if he looks more like us implies that a woman who has these features is less of a woman. I could not disagree more.

marfisa · 01/05/2018 22:20

Thanks for the link, OP, that article expresses my thoughts exactly.

I've told my colleagues and friends what the attitude towards transpeople is like on MN and they can hardly believe it. The feminist chat threads are obsessed with bashing and 'othering' trans women.

None of the trans people I've met in real life have been remotely threatening. Among the students I teach, there is occasionally someone who emails me to let me know their preferred pronouns. I respect their request and so do my colleagues. It's basic human courtesy if you ask me.

I think that if more people knew what the anti-trans prejudice on MN is like, they would be horrified, and MN wouldn't let the endless anti-trans threads proliferate the way they do.

LangCleg · 01/05/2018 22:30

So, marfisa, what did you think about the scientific discussion? Fascinating, wasn't it?

CharlieParley · 01/05/2018 22:54

I do wonder how the people in this thread accusing us of being trans exclusionary transphobes see the views tweeted under the NUStrans hashtag by transwomen that they want to be rid off the transmen.

Which isn't all that new, I know, but it makes the male entitlement and misogyny so blatantly obvious, I'd have thought they would hide it better. Or is it just they thought they were amongst friends under that hashtag and so didn't hold back?

And this teenage flounce has demonstrated rather beautifully how TRAs work. Our unfailingly polite, factual and evidence-based responses are transphobic. Why?

Because any disagreement that transwomen are actual females is transphobic.

Because saying the oppression of women is based on their biology is transphobic.

Because asking for women-only spaces is transphobic.

Only complete submission is not transphobic.

Well, fuck off. And when you get there, fuck off from there too. Then fuck off some more. Keep fucking off until you get back here. Then fuck off again.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 01/05/2018 23:23

Don't forget the other tactic, Charlie

You know, the one where you wait for 16 pages and then post as though none of the carefully worded 380ish posts exist! Just another way of denying women a voice!

You see marfisa if you had actually read the whole thread you would have seen many posters saying exactly what you so proudly post about knowing trans people in real life. Because, well, no posters here are trans anything! Many do strongly disagree with the TRA rhetoric that doesn't even bother to 'other' women, its just attempts to shout us out of existence!

ChickenMe · 01/05/2018 23:25

Great thread
Totally unable to grasp anything that mumtobe was saying about science, sounded made up to me to be honest.
On the other hand babel and George explained things very well -thank you
Now marfisa has turned up with a similar style of writing to mumtobe. Some sort of rant but not actually addressing women's concerns at all.."you're all horrible my friends can't believe it".

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 01/05/2018 23:52

"Intellectually speaking, unfortunately you've brought a knife to a gun fight"

Fucking YES! But that is what MN is great for! Much of the time I read in awe of the knowledge of the women here.

We can all contribute while appreciating that we don't fucking know it all

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 01/05/2018 23:53

Did you mean to say 'fuck off' *Charley?

AngryAttackKittens · 02/05/2018 00:03

More like has brought a bundle of limp cooked spaghetti and is ineffectually flailing it at people.

CharlieParley · 02/05/2018 00:04

Mumbling it under my breath. Singing it. Shouting it from the rooftops even.

MrsTerryPratchett · 02/05/2018 00:07

Is there a version of Godwin's Law for other dictators? Because there are echos of the Cultural Revolution to all this. Get the youth to be 'ideologically pure' and kill the old ideas of their forebears. Down with intellectualism! Down with experts! Down with the bourgeoise (i.e. MN)!

See how I don't know enough about epigenetics and phenotypes so I'm trying to join in with politics and history? Grin

GeorgeFayne · 02/05/2018 00:35

You are all killing me! I keep waking my little one from LITERALLY (that damn word again!) laughing and snorting. Thank you all for the entertainment and enlightenment. Charlie I am envious of your uninhibited expression. I fear my socialization has left me worried about swearing. (Well, that and the fact that I work with children.)

And Mrs. Pratchett, I'm fairly certain you're not the only one in this thread who doesn't quite grasp epigenetics...ha!

(Though please teach me history and politics! I am so impressed by the breadth of knowledge on MN.)

OK, so as a newbie, (for the record, we have no real equivalent forum in the US and I generally avoid social media), what were your clues here that a certain biology teacher might not be legit? Many of you clued in early on. I noticed a lot of variance in her writing, and it seemed to be rather disjointed, but I wanted to believe her. (I actually felt bad later for being a little snarky). So what were her "tells?"

AngryAttackKittens · 02/05/2018 00:52

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

busyboysmum · 02/05/2018 00:52

Oh has she been found out not to be true? I thought she started off as a net hons type writer and then suddenly seemed to be copying and pasting quite intelligently written stuff which I didn't believe was actually her words. Will now have to read the thread to find out...

thebewilderness · 02/05/2018 01:35

@GeorgeFayne

This was their first post: We're not all transphobic here some of us believe transwomen are women transmen are men, both deserve protection are welcome and trans people can be fantastic parents don't let the Sparticuses get you down hun you're loved. X

Can you figure out who they are talking to? The comment is a non sequitur. That is a tell.

I personally consider people framing an issue as a matter of conflicting beliefs to be a tell that they are not going to engage in good faith. Although it is more of a how they do it kind of thing than simply the fact that they are framing it that way.

Maybe we should make a thread where we talk about how the way we communicate in writing is full of markers and tells about our world view.

MrsWooster · 02/05/2018 01:45

I am in awe. This thread is incredible.

GeorgeFayne · 02/05/2018 04:16

thebewilderness

Totally agree...it definitely does not follow. My initial impression was that she was, perhaps, fairly young, naive, misguided, and trying to give herself some credibility. (There's no question that the level of conversion on these threads is quite intellectual. I was too intimidated to post for awhile.)

So, is it wise to take a highly skeptical approach? Or take posters at their word and see where they go with it? I know keeping the tenor of these conversations as polite and respectful is important for them to remain open.

I love the idea about specifically addressing communication in a thread.

thebewilderness · 02/05/2018 04:24

I like to wait and see unless it is something obvious and egregious.
Thumb typing on a phone has got to be weird, so I usually assume that is what I am reading when there is no punctuation and it seems a bit disjointed.

MrsTerryPratchett · 02/05/2018 04:56

I know keeping the tenor of these conversations as polite and respectful is important for them to remain open.

It is and most of us do most of the time. But when you hang out here for a while you can feel like yet another disingenuous newb who 'just wants to debate' is one too many. There used to be MRA after MRA all arguing in bad faith and wanting to laugh at the expense of feminists. Every now and again you want to shout TROLL and lose your shit.

AngryAttackKittens · 02/05/2018 05:10

I think that generally if rather than jumping on the person you encourage them to say more then that will often result in making either their credibility or their lack of it more apparent.

(But yes, some people will be out of either patience or fucks to give about manners and may attempt to nip the incipient sealioning in the bud.)

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