Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

XY males should not enter an XX specific category in ANY sport

37 replies

MargeH · 30/04/2018 15:04

....at any level. Ever. That makes it nice and simple.

And as I said in the deleted thread, if that's deemed unfair to some, then tough. I'm five foot one and never made the netball team. Some guys never get laid. Real life sometimes sucks.

Just my view.

OP posts:
TerfinUSA · 30/04/2018 15:09

What about XY females? I am not quite clear the intent of your title.

TheUterati · 30/04/2018 15:13

There is no such thing as an XY female.

I understand the OP to be using 'XX' an 'XY' as a proxy for 'women' and 'men' because we are no longer 'allowed' to use those words to refer to actual women and men....

I do not understand the OP to be insisting that we have DNA testing on everyone who enters a sporting event. We know who is a man and who is a woman. Really we do. And in those rare cases that we do not, it is symptomatic of the fact that people are now wont to make all manner of changes to their appearance. It is not symptomatic of any inherent difficulty in distinguishing men from women.

TerfinUSA · 30/04/2018 15:19

Sigh.

There is literally such a thing as an XY female.

ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/swyer-syndrome

Please be better informed.

It's ok to say 'no people with XY chromosomes', but 'no XY males' is tautologous if you actually mean 'no people with XY chromosomes'.

0phelia · 30/04/2018 15:22

There technically are XY females actually.
Androgen insensitivity leads to XY chromosome people developing with female anatomy, secondary female sex characteristics such as breasts etc but usually comes with other abnormalities.
It's classed as intersex. Other conditions are also classed as intersex.
Intersex is not trans.

Trans people need to stop appropriating intersex.

But XY females do exists as they were "assigned female at birth" unlike actual women who yknow were observed as female at birth.

0phelia · 30/04/2018 15:23

Oh I type slowly.

TerfinUSA · 30/04/2018 15:23

The point being that transgender people will say 'we are not XY males, we are XY females'.

0phelia · 30/04/2018 15:25

No XY males is totally clear.

I agree XY males should not compete in female categories.

XY intersex females should be treated on a case-by-case basis.

XY trans "women" should compete with men or just not compete.

TheUterati · 30/04/2018 15:25

Genetic disorder of males:

www.nhs.uk/conditions/Androgen-insensitivity-syndrome/

ILikeMyChickenFried · 30/04/2018 15:26

I agree. I feel a lot of the stuff on here is bordering on transphobic but in the realms of competitive sport the differences between a woman born female and one born male are too large for it to be a fair fight.

0phelia · 30/04/2018 15:26

XY intersex females and XY trans women are completely different and it's completely offensive for anyone to say i am an XY female if they aren't intersex.

TerfinUSA · 30/04/2018 15:27

"But XY females do exists as they were "assigned female at birth" unlike actual women who know were observed as female at birth."

I think you can be an 'assigned female at birth' without being female. Certain genetic conditions will result in XY individuals being assigned female at birth (at least in less developed countries) but only at puberty does it become obvious that they are masculine, and not only male, but a fertile male.

In my opinion it's slightly hard to argue that a human being with fertile sperm and male body who happened to be 'assigned female at birth', is in fact female.

Clearly, though, there are some cases that are not so clear cut....

TheUterati · 30/04/2018 15:28

Yes - the existence of intersex genetic abnormalities does not prove the existence of trans. (And surely if it did, then they would all be against GRA and be for making the process much tighter and more medicalised, as there would be a test for the 'real' ones? Or at least working towards a test would be the desirable end point....)

MargeH · 30/04/2018 15:36

Apologies about the title if it's confusing. The XY and XX were referring to chromosomes, but I thought I might run out of space, typing that twice.

And I was specifically referring to XY chromosome males, not XY chromosome females.

The intersex issue is, imo, a separate one.

OP posts:
NotTerfNorCis · 30/04/2018 15:37

I think @Ophelia sums it up quite nicely here. Women and intersex females (on a case by case basis) only in women's sport.

TerfinUSA · 30/04/2018 15:38

The problem is defining 'XY female' is not entirely straightforward IME, there are some more-or-less ambiguous cases, but there are a lot of TRAs who will try and claims some sort of intersex condition - there was one who did a hunger strike against Mary Beard on behalf of 'intersexual statuary', who had originally claimed to be intersex but after testing was ~~quite~~ very disappointed to find out he wasn't....

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 30/04/2018 15:40

Women and intersex females (on a case by case basis) only in women's sport

This^ it's the only fair, logical way to do it.

R0wantrees · 30/04/2018 15:40

Alice Dreger's article published last week in the New York Times:
www.nytimes.com/2018/04/27/opinion/caster-semenya-intersex-athletes.html

DonkeySkin · 30/04/2018 15:41

I thought the OP was referring to intersex males like Caster Semenya as well as trans-identified males, that's why she specified XY.

And I agree with her. Possession of a Y chromosome should exclude anyone from competing in women's sport. This isn't about wanting to restrict opportunities for trans-identified or intersex male athletes, but rather fairness for female athletes. They deserve female-only competitions.

I find the language behind this whole debate very manipulative. It's always framed as 'trans inclusion' or 'intersex inclusion' when in fact it is only ever about male inclusion in women's sport.

No one cares about the lack of 'trans inclusion' in men's sport. You don't see trans-identified females taking medals or places off male athletes, nor are we ever likely to, and no one gives a shit.

As for intersex athletes, that goes only one way too. It's always males with certain intersex conditions dominating women's sport - there are no cases of women with a single X chromosome doing what Caster Semenya does. In every case, it's about a person with a Y chromosome leaving athletes with XX chromosomes in the dust - in a competition that was set up specifically for people with XX chromosomes.

Again, this is about fairness to female athletes, not a pronouncement on the personhood of trans-identified or intersex males. As people they are of course entitled to full human rights and to be treated with respect. But as males they do not belong in women's sports. There's no human right to take part in women's sporting competitions - it is a restricted category for a reason.

DonkeySkin · 30/04/2018 16:31

That Alice Dreger piece is illustrative of the manipulative and disingenuous arguments that are being forwarded in favour of males in women's sports.

It:

  1. Spends a lot of time guilt-tripping readers with gender studies guff about 'identity' and what makes a 'real woman', which is irrelevant to sports, and falsely implies that those who say it isn't fair for intersex males to compete against females are denying the dignity and worth of intersex males and/or their right to be recognised socially as women, and even driving them to suicide.

2.) Claims that the existence of intersex conditions means that male and female don't exist as coherent categories, and athletic officials cannot reasonably distinguish between them.

  1. Spuriously equates differences in body size and shape between members of the same sex to the physiological differences between the sexes, and implies that it therefore follows that dividing sporting competitions by sex makes no more sense than dividing them by height or arm span.

I would add a point 4) for the ludicrous 'It's all hormones, innit?' bit where she says that because female athletes are allowed to use the pill they have no grounds to object to competing against a male with internal testes pumping out testosterone, but I'm losing the will to engage further with that piece. It's just so pomo and fundamentally dishonest.

The one thing I DO agree with Dreger on is that sporting bodies need to drop their singular focus on testosterone as the only marker of 'advantage'. Even with lower testosterone levels, male athletes have different skeletal structures, more muscle fibres and larger hearts and lungs. That should be enough to exclude them from women's sport.

BTW physiologist Ross Tucker deftly shoots down the absurd and disingenuous argument made in point 3 here:

We have a separate category for women because without it, no women would even make the Olympic Games (with the exception of equestrian). Most of the women’s world records, even doped, lie outside the top 5000 times run by men. Radcliffe’s marathon WR, for instance, is beaten by between 250 and 300 men per year. Without a women’s category, elite sport would be exclusively male.

That premise hopefully agreed, we then see that the presence of the Y-chromosome is THE single greatest genetic “advantage” a person can have. That doesn’t mean that all men outperform all women, but it means that for elite sport discussion, that Y-chromosome, and specifically the SRY gene on it, which directs the formation of testes and the production of Testosterone, is a key criteria on which to separate people into categories...

The advantage enjoyed by a Semenya is not the same as the one enjoyed by say, Usain Bolt, or LeBron James, or Michael Phelps, because we don’t compete in categories of fast-twitch fiber, or height, or foot size (pick your over simplification for performance here). So Semenya has a genetic advantage, by virtue of A) having a Y-chromosome and testes, and B) being unable to use that T and/or one of its derivatives enough to have developed fully male.

AnitaLovesVictor · 30/04/2018 16:42

Agree, OP.

XY males should not be competing in women's sports.

Dozer · 30/04/2018 16:45

Yes, and the current rules are a disgrace.

Costmary · 05/05/2018 21:38

How is it 'transphobic' to object to men competing in women's sports? If they have become legally 'female' according to the legislation of their country, or have met e.g. IOC requirements, then they are 'legitimately' able to compete. But that doesn't make it fair. Male bodied people - especially if they 'transition' late - will have advantages over women in many sports. This will soon put girls off going into sport when we are just succeeding in inspiring people to be more active

Bloodmagic · 06/05/2018 09:48

@terfinUSA @Ophelia

There is not such thing as an XY female.

The whole reason sawyer syndrome IS an intersex condition is because is causes those who are male to appear as if they were female. If they WERE female is wouldn't be an intersex condition, it would be normal development. This is also true of Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome.

Because these conditions all exist on a scale (there is partial and mild androgen insensitivity too) if you allow any to participate as women there is no clear line where you can disallow others. If men with sawyer syndrome and CAIS are allowed, shouldn't men with partial androgen insensitivity be allowed? They wouldn't be able to compete on the mens teams, either. And if you allow partial androgen insensitivity, why not mild? And then why not transwomen who have less androgens than they do? And then we're right back where we started.

I agree, this is one of those intersex cases that gets really, really close to the line but they do have a y chromosome, do not have ovaries, do not produce ovum, and do not menstruate. They are male.

A legless lizard isn't a snake even if it looks a whole lot like one.

For most intents and purposes they can and should be considered as if they were female. and on a case-by-case basis intersex people should be included in women's amateur sports where appropriate, but I would still object to any male person (intersex or not) on a high-level women's sports team. The severe intersex conditions are not common enough to prove that there isn't an advantage conferred by their sex.

And again this could alllll be solved by having more co-ed teams (in those amateur sports where sex is less important) and adding trans/intersex divisions to high level sports the same way they added women's divisions and the Special and Paralympics. We never needed to change the definition of men or take places from men on high level sports teams in order to add places for other people who could not compete on those teams, and we don't need to take places away from women now to allow intersex and trans males.

AncientLights · 06/05/2018 10:17

@TerfinUSA 'There is literally such a thing as an XY female'

But ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/swyer-syndrome states 'A child born with AIS is genetically male'. Our resident geneticist Bowlofbablefish says this too. AIS individuals may appear female from their genitalia but clearly actually aren't on a genetic level.

Pratchet · 06/05/2018 10:21

I agree with blood. Dwyer syndrome is a male condition not a female condition.

Swipe left for the next trending thread