XY males should not enter an XX specific category in ANY sport

[MargeH]

....at any level. Ever. That makes it nice and simple.

And as I said in the deleted thread, if that's deemed unfair to some, then tough. I'm five foot one and never made the netball team. Some guys never get laid. Real life sometimes sucks.

Just my view.

@ILikeMyChickenFried I'd be very interested to know about what you find transphobic here, and by 'here' do you mean on this thread or this board? I seldom see anything that I would understand as transphobic, even giving that a broad meaning, and calling science that is a dangerous path I don't want to tread.

Swyer

By "here" I mean Mumsnet in general, obvioisly not this thread there had only been a couple of posts and I was agreeing with the OP!

Unfortunately the perpetrators rarely see where they're doing wrong. There's plenty of balanced discussion on the topic across the various chat boards here but I have also seen numerous posts which take it too far. Thankfully, when reported, such comments are usually deleted.

It is an absolute joke. My DS(11) runs, tends to come 3rd or 4th at athletics meetings. He actually said to me jokingly, "I should identify as a girl mum then I'd win". (He's obviously overheard me ranting to DH).

Now, obviously my kid wouldn't really do that. But loads of kids (and parents) are massively competitive. Looking at the young girls working their hardest, enjoying their sport, well it just makes me angry really.

on a case by case basis
There are always going to be people who disagree with every decision.

You've got people like Sarah Gronert xy AIS who is legally female and following investigation by the International tennis federation was declared "legally and biologically female". But got insults from some because she won a number of tournaments - yet she never once even ranked inside the top 100 women tennis players in the world. www.queerty.com/the-effort-to-sideline-rising-tennis-star-sarah-gronert-because-she-was-born-with-both-boy-and-girl-parts-20090323

Then you've got a different female athlete who has another type of intersex condition (which we won't say as it's supposed to be confidential but has been reported by many news sources) that has a serum testosterone level 3 times higher than most women and there has been discussion about such contestants having to lower their levels because they have been found to have an advantage. Such person would have had a higher t level all her adult life, impacting on muscle development, and would potentially have more of an advantage than a trans woman who transitioned early!

So how do you fairly work all that out? Who has the right to play sex police?

Slight side track but seems to fit here...

Ive long thought that at the elite level, one of the few sports where men and women compete together and separately is doubles tennis - there’s both mixed doubles and men’s/women’s doubles, and people often seem to compete in both mixed and single sex competitions.

It would be really interesting to hear what the differences are in the different games, the differences in technique and strategy and ??? when training and competing.

As an article it doesn’t need to mention anything trans at all. But it could produce some really interesting insights that could then be used to inform this debate.

As with the bathroooms/changing rooms bit of the debate:

We have had for years a tiny number of intersex athletes, managed with a case by case approach, with frequent debate around them on the issues of fairness, but so small a number and so individualised that it's not mattered that much.

Now we're looking at potentially much larger numbers in the context of a discussion that goes it's a grey area and uses intersex people as a means of making the waters as muddy as possible, but the bottom line is that using this grey area men born and developed as men are now identifying and competing against women. Basically the piss has been taken and it's become a major disadvantage to women, women's rights and women's freedoms.

The answer then has to be a third competing space. Anyone simply and straight forwardly biologically female or male (the massive, overwhelming majority) compete in the female and male classes. Those for whom body chemistry and sex is more complex compete in a separate category where probably systems would need to be used for fairness must as disabled categories work.

I am not completely resolved about how XY females like Caster compete.

But, my issue with males in women's sports is about them pushing out women from competition until we are left with two categories for sport: Mens (elite males) and Women's (mediocre males).

The natural rarity of XY females is that even if they are included and win, we will never be in a situation where we have two categories for sport: Men & XY females.

I really am torn about Caster. She has known herself as female all her life, found that she had and extraordinary talent but didn't know why, dedicated herself to developing that talent without the benefit of male privilege.

I am certain that it is unethical to ask her to take harmful drugs into her healthy body in order to be able to compete.

So the intersex question is still not resolved - yet it is a side issue and not one that has the power to ruin sport for women.

However born XY males should never be in women's sports. Ever. No matter what they identify as or what they do to their bodies. This is the focus and there should be a blanket ban now. NOW! Not tomorrow (- in fact, even yesterday - we should be reviewing all trans wins and giving the titles to the women who were robbed).

The nuances of the fairness of people with intersex conditions competing require more thought to really thrash it out and it is best to take all the time the decision needs, instead of being hasty.

But these are not relevant to the trans issue.

No XY men in women's sport NOW!

"I am not completely resolved about how XY females like Caster compete."

I am not completely resolved as to how we decide that someone is an XY female rather than an XY male.

Some of these 'female' athletes are fertile males with obviously male bodies and obviously 'living as a man' in terms of their daily life.

See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5%CE%B1-Reductase_deficiency

In one community 1 in 90 boys are born without penises

www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34290981

Their community is completely unequivocal that they are male, even though they are initially identified as female.

In most other places this condition is very rare and the 'reassignment' at puberty may be less automatic. It's clear all the same that these people male

This is the third placed athlete to Caster Semenya in the 800m

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Wambui
www.sde.co.ke/thenairobian/article/2001275880/800m-sprinter-margaret-nyairera-is-snatching-my-girlfriend-distraught-man

"In a series of screenshots shared with The Nairobian, the man pleads with Wambui not to interfere with their relationship. The back and forth has Wambui stating that she has a sweeter dick than Chemogos."

Clearly there are some XY athletes identified as female who may be unaware of their condition until testing during competition, but we shouldn't assert that they are completely clueless of their condition.

Wambui at 185cm/70kg has the physique of a male 800m champion.

There is a massive, massive incentive, like millions of dollars, for coaches in Africa to identify and train teenagers with 5α-reductase deficiency who were assigned female at birth and maintain their gender identity as female, even if they may be 'expressing as male'. It doesn't matter. If you have a promising athlete of 13 or 14 years old who it is clear from their developing androgenised physique has 5α-reductase deficiency, then you would be INSANE to allow them to correct their sex to male. Why would you? Much better to win millions of dollars.

That's interesting Terfing - I wonder if it is the commonality in the Dominican Republic that leads to the social recognition of being male at puberty?