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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

London Review of Books article. Who has the right to sex.

68 replies

Meeep · 26/04/2018 13:42

www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n06/amia-srinivasan/does-anyone-have-the-right-to-sex

Thought this was interesting, and you guys would maybe find it interesting too.

OP posts:
Wanderabout · 26/04/2018 18:05

They want to be able to say "incels demanding sex = wrong, self-described trans lesbians demanding sex = perfectly okay."

So basically all an incel would have to do is say 'I am a woman' and their views are championed by articles like this.

Ereshkigal · 26/04/2018 18:31

So basically all an incel would have to do is say 'I am a woman' and their views are championed by articles like this.

Yes, and IMO that's frequently what they do do.

terryleather · 26/04/2018 18:40

Wine and Gin for the both of us Eresh, and anyone else who's in need of it...

Ereshkigal · 26/04/2018 18:51

Thanks terry! Wine

Whynottry · 26/04/2018 19:18

I would imagine death grip because there are many, what you would call straight men, who happily sleep with transsexual women.

Many, many, many..

thebewilderness · 26/04/2018 19:23

What's the sub title? Cotton Ceiling Revisited?

thebewilderness · 26/04/2018 19:24

2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.

Ereshkigal · 26/04/2018 19:27

I would imagine death grip because there are many, what you would call straight men, who happily sleep with transsexual women.

I wouldn't call them straight men.

TheRagingGirl · 26/04/2018 19:38

I don’t see society falling over itself to make sure women are allowed to develop their desires away from the male gaze

And I don’t see incidences of women who are celibate but would rather not be shooting men or running them down. I don’t see women murdering men because the men won’t have sex with them.

Whynottry · 26/04/2018 19:47

Ereshkigal Why not?

I am speaking from experience and in my experience nearly ALL the guys I’ve slept with have a girlfriend or a wife and consider themselves straight men.

doctorcuntybollocks · 26/04/2018 19:51

What they consider themselves and what they are may not be the same thing.

Whynottry · 26/04/2018 19:53

I think you missed my point.

What I am saying is lots and lots of these men that you refer to and believe are straight are perhaps not quite as straight as you’d like them to be.

sillage · 26/04/2018 19:56

It's my experience that men lie a lot about their sexuality to people they want to have fleeting flings with.

Whynottry · 26/04/2018 20:08

I didn’t come here for an argument. I was just giving my opinion. I’ve only just joined as I’ve been lurking for a long time and want to talk to some of you.. If you want to disagree with my reality that’s fine.

Teacuphiccup · 26/04/2018 20:23

You can define your sexuality however you like.
If you are a man who considers himself straight and sleeps with trans women then that’s totally that mans prerogative, just as some lesbians will sleep with trans women.
Hell I know straight men who have slept with men and straight women who’ve slept with women.

But it is also fine for a lesbian or a straight man to say I don’t want to sleep with trans women without being hounded for it.

Ereshkigal · 26/04/2018 20:33

What I am saying is lots and lots of these men that you refer to and believe are straight are perhaps not quite as straight as you’d like them to be.

That's a fair point, and one I've heard from other trans people. But I don't consider those men straight. They're bisexual.

FermatsTheorem · 26/04/2018 21:27

It's not so much that the"onlooker" thinks them to be straight, it's that there is a fairly large proportion of men who would describe themselves as straight while having sex with other men - so much so that people in the public health sector working to reduce risky sexual behaviours have a phrase "men who have sex with men" to try to get across to these men that they need to use condoms whether they think of themselves as gay or straight.

However, this feels to me like a derail. Whether or not the men having sex with transwomen who still have a penis think of themselves as gay or straight, the fact remains that for the most part they are under no social pressure to engage in this sort of sex. A lot of young lesbians, in contrast, are being threatened with ostracism and told they are bigots if they won't accept penis.

It's not about what's going into which orifices, but whether that's taking place under coercion, and whether that coercion is applied to women rather than to men.

AllyMcBeagle · 26/04/2018 21:31

I found that article very confusing. Sharing sandwiches... but sex is different from sandwiches... unless you're talking about transwomen and then maybe it is like sandwiches... why aren't you sleeping with transwomen you mean lesbians?

I think A) nobody has a right to sex with anyone else and B) some people are naturally more likely to be someone else's cup of tea than others. My DH has complained that he spent his life being rejected by women for being on the short side (5'7") but I think that's just tough. Human sexuality is what it is.

I very strongly object to any suggestion that women need to be 're-educated' in any way when it comes to their choice of sexual partners.

And then there was this quote:
"Trans women often face sexual exclusion from lesbian cis women who at the same time claim to take them seriously as women."
Umm, maybe it's because a lot of people don't really see transwomen as women and are just saying they do to be nice?

Datun · 26/04/2018 21:46

*Trans women often face sexual exclusion from lesbian cis women who at the same time claim to take them seriously as women."

Or maybe it's because they get called bigoted transphobes if they don't agree they're women.

Setting them up to fail, really.

0phelia · 26/04/2018 21:52

And then there was this quote:
"Trans women often face sexual exclusion from lesbian cis women who at the same time claim to take them seriously as women".

Umm, maybe it's because a lot of people don't really see transwomen as women and are just saying they do to be nice?

Not kidding, word for word, this is exactly what I was going to post!

Ereshkigal · 26/04/2018 21:53

Or maybe it's because they get called bigoted transphobes if they don't agree they're women.

Setting them up to fail, really.

Exactly.

Datun · 26/04/2018 22:02

I will hound you until you agree I'm a woman, and then I will hound you for sex because you agree I'm a woman.

KittTheCar · 26/04/2018 22:09

Q. Who has the right to sex?
A. No-one

Do I need to read the article?

Ereshkigal · 26/04/2018 22:22

I will hound you until you agree I'm a woman, and then I will hound you for sex because you agree I'm a woman.

That's the TRA maxim. Always push that little bit further. No concession is ever enough.

bluescreen · 26/04/2018 22:31

The article is quite subtle. Then there's this letter by Rebecca Solnit, whose name is taken in vain, under the link. And a reply by the author. Not worth frothing about but worth a look.
www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n06/amia-srinivasan/does-anyone-have-the-right-to-sex