Trans women are women answers to Terfmore's questions

[SupermatchGame]

Terfmore. I don't want to override the ASD discussion that's developed...
but SupermacthGame: you gave your explanation why "trans women are women". I was hoping for a coherent argument.
Could you respond to my request that you clarify your position; I found it difficult to understand tbh I found it incoherent.
You could start a new thread if you like.

Ok, as you suggest:

upthread you say -
"Trans women are women because 'woman' (or female) is not only a legal designation but having a gender identity of 'woman' is a legitimate female gender identity with some basis in biology and physiology. No-one said this is an exact science. It's pragmatic." -
Could you break this down -

1. what do you mean "woman" is a legal designation? what law are you referring to? do you mean "adult human female"?

I mean the category ‘female’ not only has a biological definition, but it is also a legal category that can be conferred to a person following GRC. I’m using ‘woman’ and ‘female’ interchangeably here. Eg as specified in the Royal College of Psychiatrist’s Guidance on gender dysphoria:
"Once a Gender Regulation [sic] Certificate has been issued, the applicant must, in accordance with the provisions of that certificate, be identified as a man or a woman and not a ‘trans man’ or ‘trans woman’. "

Quoting the Gender Recognition Act 2004:
"Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman)." (my bold)

2. what does "gender identity of woman is a legitimate female gender identity" mean.

It means that regardless of natal sex, if a person identifies as a woman, and they have been diagnosed or confirmed as having a ‘female gender identity’ then to all intents and purposes they are classed as having a female gender identity that legitimises medical and legal transition. I’m not sure taken in isolation this clause makes much sense because it is part of a larger sentence.

3. in what way is an identity legitimate (and presumably there will be non or illegitimate identity?)

Legitimate as in confirmed by psychiatrists and/ or psychologists. As in a (cross sex) gender identity that is not caused by some co-morbidity or underlying pathology. (Not caused by anything other than GID/ or 'transgenderism'). An identity that can then be further legitimised by changing legal status.

4. do you mean identity "has some basis in biology and physiology"? what do you mean by identity? (it means different things to different people).

I mean gender identity (the sex with which an individual identifies with or feels they are) has genetic, biological, environmental and societal causes. (Although you could say that about most aspects of identity - using the biopsychosocial model). What evidence there is points to this. I’ve highlighted a lot of it on the other thread. I was abbreviating my language and focusing on the non environmental causes - by biology I meant genes and biochemistry including hormonal influences. By physiology I meant the physiology of the brain as in brain structure. Is There Something Unique about the Transgender Brain? www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

5. What is "pragmatic"? I think you are referring to "trans women are women" not being exact but we just have to live with it. but I may have that wrong?

Not 100% perfect solution. No-one has yet found a way to ‘cure’ transsexualism. Treatment alleviates dysphoria. In many cases it supports the person to lead a happier life in which they can function better psychologically, emotionally, socially and occupationally. Sometimes also in terms of sexual relationships. It’s not a perfect transition - trans women do not acquire wombs, trans men do not have real testicles (not that they all want to?) Not all trans people can resemble their new sex as much as they would ideally like. But it can be good enough. It can support improved health outcomes for some individuals. It is also a solution that most of society (and it’s main organisations) seems to accept. Hence pragmatic, not perfect, solution.

Who do you mean by trans women super?

My impression is that super believes that transwomen are women, but also defines a trans woman as somebody undergoing medical treatment to maintain their hormones at a particular level.

I don’t think this definition exists in any existing or proposed legislation, and I don’t think it is commonly used elsewhere.

And how exactly are we supposed to tell the difference?

Maybe the idea is that you get monthly hormone tests from the GRA certificate provider? Goes way beyond what anyone else is suggesting!

don’t think this definition exists in any existing or proposed legislation

No, I meant to say.

Which is why I suggested that Supermatch go have a word with Stonewall and all the other orgs that are most definitely not using that definition.

Only a tiny minority of the population actually believe the transwomen are women mantra.

Well this will be the second time I ask this on this thread and I do hope someone can provide an answer as I'd really like to know; what makes you think this please?

Is there some study?

Or is this based on the prevailing feeling on the MN FWR boards?

Or anecdotal evidence?

Because look, I think it's really really tenuous to trot this out as fact. In fact it doesn't even seem likely that it's even a minority on MN who think this, if the petition is anything to go by. And that's been in the national press, so... Strikes me that a good many people probably would say transwomen are women.

Bit gaslighty to suggest with any authority that they don't

And Supermatch, you seem like you can look after yourself, but just in case... Telling someone repeatedly that in presenting their arguments they are furthering the cause of that which they debate against is at best bloody obvious as a potential outcome of any exchange of views, and at worst a snarky and disingenuous tactic to deter anyone from presenting those arguments in the first place. Buuuuut you know that, so keep on keeping on, if that's something you see value in doing :)

If the majority believes a penis is a female sex organ the species would have died out.

They don't. If you really think the vast majority of people in this country honestly and truly think these men are actually women and not fragile, volatile men with a mental health condition who they don't want to offend, you are deluded. And I think you know that.

In fact it doesn't even seem likely that it's even a minority on MN who think this, if the petition is anything to go by. And that's been in the national press, so... Strikes me that a good many people probably would say transwomen are women.

If the petition were asking people to agree that trans women are not women then perhaps. But it’s not.

And that's only the ones with gender dysphoria, who people wrongly think due to their general lack of interest, and the dishonest way this issue is framed in the media, make up the majority of trans people. Of course they don't think cross dressers are really women. Lol. Unlike Stonewall.

The petition proved nothing, lots of women wouldn’t have signed because they wouldn’t have wanted their real names on it in perfectly reasonable fear of harassment from tras.

I agree Rat that we have no idea what most people think about this issue. My best guess would be that most people don’t think about this issue.

‘Transwomen are women’ is pretty meaningless anyway. First you have to define what you mean by transwomen and women.

Depends how you phrase the question doesn't it. If you ask "is a transwoman a type of woman" I think it wouldn't be your average woman on the street who would say no.

But again, it's all simply speculation. Is that what everybody's basing this on then, right?

Also upstart, I couldn't give a shiny shit what you want to call a penis, or how you define a woman when I feel like procreating. I don't habitually consult the dictionary to get me in the mood

I suspect most people on Mumsnet arent aware there is a petition. It’s not a Mumsnet petition and it hasn’t been promoted by Mumsnet.

But again, it's all simply speculation. Is that what everybody's basing this on then, right?

Yes, because we haven't surveyed the whole country. I think it's pretty obvious that even many people who claim trans identified males are women don't believe this.

But again, just speculation

With regard to the population believing that 'trans women are women', I think you are right that the vast majority of people do not think that someone can literally change sex and actually change chromosomes. They of course recognise that the person in question was born male but has now undergone transition.

Where I think you may be wrong is thinking that everyone agrees with you that trans women should not be treated like women. I actually think that you might be surprised there. Things like deliberately misgendering and then acting all innocent and saying you're just telling the truth do not help your cause- it makes you look like dickheads. For instance, people like Venice Allan make a huge point of calling trans women 'he' and bleat on about linguistic accuracy and then admits that she calls the trans women that she likes 'she'. Okay then. So it has nothing to do with linguistic accuracy. Watching some of her rambling videos on youtube seriously puts me off the entire movement and I suspect that many other women feel the same. Not to mention Jennifer James on the other thread with her adoration of George Galloway.

I remember watching Corrie ages ago when Hayley was in it and her boss tried to stop her using the ladies toilets at work. The general public was hugely supportive of the character and deplored the way she was treated. That was 20 years ago and now people are wanting to do the exact same that Hayley's boss did.

Yes I do think it depends on how you ask the question, if you asked ‘Is a trans woman female’ then I don’t think it would be your average woman on the street who would say yes.

lots of women wouldn’t have signed because they wouldn’t have wanted their real names on it in perfectly reasonable fear of harassment from tras.

And you believe this because? I mean sure, there is probably anecdotal evidence of this happening, but why do you think it is widespread? Is it for the same reasons that many seem to think the majority of the population share their "GC" views? Still don't know why that is.

‘Transwomen are women’ is pretty meaningless anyway. First you have to define what you mean by transwomen and women.

Oh my god, I completely agree that isn't as good as meaningless! With that in mind can you give me any insight as to why some people are so hung up on pressing the point one way or the other??

My feeling is that transwomen are women, except in some situations where they're transwomen. And the law rather agrees with me. In fact that's almost exactly what it says.

Where I think you may be wrong is thinking that everyone agrees with you that trans women should not be treated like women.

How do you you treat someone like a woman?

Anecdotal evidence is not real evidence, everything has to be a proper accredited survey of some sort, unless its the opinion of a man that he feels like a woman.

My feeling is that transwomen are women, except in some situations where they're transwomen. And the law rather agrees with me. In fact that's almost exactly what it says.

How weird. So you think a legal fiction is objective material reality? Either they are women (adult human females) or they aren't. They aren't. They are male. HTH. What if the law changed? What was the case before the law was made?

I agree Peak, I have very mixed opinions on Venice and Jennifer and do sometimes wince at what they say, but I also think they are incredibly brave women who have got way more balls than me!!
I also think it is sometimes vital to be able to name what we are talking about, it’s important to point out they are Male sometimes otherwise we can’t grasp the meat of the argument.
I don’t think we should misgender individuals for no reason though, just say their name.