Trans women are women answers to Terfmore's questions

[SupermatchGame]

Terfmore. I don't want to override the ASD discussion that's developed...
but SupermacthGame: you gave your explanation why "trans women are women". I was hoping for a coherent argument.
Could you respond to my request that you clarify your position; I found it difficult to understand tbh I found it incoherent.
You could start a new thread if you like.

Ok, as you suggest:

upthread you say -
"Trans women are women because 'woman' (or female) is not only a legal designation but having a gender identity of 'woman' is a legitimate female gender identity with some basis in biology and physiology. No-one said this is an exact science. It's pragmatic." -
Could you break this down -

1. what do you mean "woman" is a legal designation? what law are you referring to? do you mean "adult human female"?

I mean the category ‘female’ not only has a biological definition, but it is also a legal category that can be conferred to a person following GRC. I’m using ‘woman’ and ‘female’ interchangeably here. Eg as specified in the Royal College of Psychiatrist’s Guidance on gender dysphoria:
"Once a Gender Regulation [sic] Certificate has been issued, the applicant must, in accordance with the provisions of that certificate, be identified as a man or a woman and not a ‘trans man’ or ‘trans woman’. "

Quoting the Gender Recognition Act 2004:
"Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman)." (my bold)

2. what does "gender identity of woman is a legitimate female gender identity" mean.

It means that regardless of natal sex, if a person identifies as a woman, and they have been diagnosed or confirmed as having a ‘female gender identity’ then to all intents and purposes they are classed as having a female gender identity that legitimises medical and legal transition. I’m not sure taken in isolation this clause makes much sense because it is part of a larger sentence.

3. in what way is an identity legitimate (and presumably there will be non or illegitimate identity?)

Legitimate as in confirmed by psychiatrists and/ or psychologists. As in a (cross sex) gender identity that is not caused by some co-morbidity or underlying pathology. (Not caused by anything other than GID/ or 'transgenderism'). An identity that can then be further legitimised by changing legal status.

4. do you mean identity "has some basis in biology and physiology"? what do you mean by identity? (it means different things to different people).

I mean gender identity (the sex with which an individual identifies with or feels they are) has genetic, biological, environmental and societal causes. (Although you could say that about most aspects of identity - using the biopsychosocial model). What evidence there is points to this. I’ve highlighted a lot of it on the other thread. I was abbreviating my language and focusing on the non environmental causes - by biology I meant genes and biochemistry including hormonal influences. By physiology I meant the physiology of the brain as in brain structure. Is There Something Unique about the Transgender Brain? www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

5. What is "pragmatic"? I think you are referring to "trans women are women" not being exact but we just have to live with it. but I may have that wrong?

Not 100% perfect solution. No-one has yet found a way to ‘cure’ transsexualism. Treatment alleviates dysphoria. In many cases it supports the person to lead a happier life in which they can function better psychologically, emotionally, socially and occupationally. Sometimes also in terms of sexual relationships. It’s not a perfect transition - trans women do not acquire wombs, trans men do not have real testicles (not that they all want to?) Not all trans people can resemble their new sex as much as they would ideally like. But it can be good enough. It can support improved health outcomes for some individuals. It is also a solution that most of society (and it’s main organisations) seems to accept. Hence pragmatic, not perfect, solution.

denial and diversion of many women's key concerns by some posters

TIMs aren't women, so no. Also "I know you are but what am I?" is a. childish and b. a bit 2005.

Teacup I didn't think I was arguing against you. Like who are you and where did you come from?

TIMs aren't women, so no

But trans women are, so yes.

"Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman)."

if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman

Legally, not physically.

Repeating it over and over again doesn't make it true, and as you can see nobody here is finding your arguments convincing so far. The legal system does not have the power to change a person's biological sex, just to compel people to lie about it (sadly).

Well for the purpose of the law they are considered female but they aren’t actually female are they.

Like who are you

Are you, like, 12, and from the San Fernando Valley?

Interesting SMG, that you present my comment about "the denial and diversion of many women's concerns by some posters" as supportive of your viewpoint.

It didn't. I was talking about women's concerns. Not non-women's concerns. I was referring to your denial and diversion. But I suspect you know that anyway.

Every time you post. Every time you do things like that. You keep building my understanding of what's going on here.

I support the rights of those who identify as trans. I don't support those who wish to ignore, deny, or trample over women's rights And by women, I mean the definition of women most people understand to be true.

Poor Crenshaw, look at what people have done with her perfectly valid and useful framework.

Imagine watching it being turned into Penis Feminism™.

But trans women are, so yes.

No.

why we need safe female spaces for vulnerable women, including trans women

... why we need safe female spaces for vulnerable women, including excluding trans women because all indications so far suggest they retain male pattern offending rates. If vulnerable, trans males will need separate spaces and services.

There. Fixed it for you.

And one last point, before I leave this to those who are calmer, and more informed than me to highlight this issue.

SMG - the more you push, the more you deny the issues, the more you turn people like me. People like me who support trans rights. Who fought for better representation in things like data collection, representation so trans people wouldn't be isolated, would be respected. Who thought they were being inclusive, respectful, and understanding.

Many of us had no idea that, in what we were doing, we were unwittingly opening a door to the abuse of women's rights, to the demands to control women's spaces, to this new world where we are policed in what we say. Opening the door to people who seem to have no respect for women, who sexualise 'womanhood', who refuse to understand or engage with the issues that face women and girls daily.

Your stance makes me regret the actions I took to be more inclusive. To be respectful. To be a woman. You pushed me too far.

@PeakPants "All that’s needed to discredit the argument is that actually self-ID is very unlikely to lead to a load of men seeking GRCs for dubious reasons. You then instantly lose any moral high ground."

They won't need to seek anything, in fact many won't bother, IMHO, genuine or otherwise. Because no one will challenge anyone.

It I'd also not just about safety.

I'm not afraid my father in law will attack me but I don't want him with me in the female changing rooms.

I also think you are ignoring the very real gaslighting that is going on with the 'trans women are women mantra."

How will future young women and girls be able to define their own boundaries when told by orgsnisations like Girl Guides that any boy who identifies as a girl can sleep in a tent with them? And that they are the bigot if they refuse this?

Many people have no idea about all this. They have no idea all main stream political parties are considering letting any male self id as a woman.

This will have a backlash on trans people and the push to 'De-medicalise being trans' will impact negatively on trans people with genuine dysphoria. Because if the 'issue' isn't medical what can the NHS do (I believe this will impact on availability of counselling, medication, surgery).

So when the Tories say being trans isn't a medical issue, I don't thonk they hear cheering I think they hear cash registers ring because they might just save themselves money in the future.

And as someone who does care about people with dysphoria this worries me, IMHO. But not as much as the damage this ideology is doing to young women.

SupermatchGame

I think section 20 of the 2004 GRA says there are exceptions to a person being their acquired gender/sex for all purposes? It says "Where (apart from this subsection) a relevant gender-specific offence could be committed or attempted only if the gender of a person to whom a full gender recognition certificate has been issued were not the acquired gender, the fact that the person’s gender has become the acquired gender does not prevent the offence being committed or attempted." I asked about this on another thread and someone kindly shared the official police guidance on this point, which confirmed it in relation to the offence of rape of a female, which can only be committed by a male. In this case (as I understood it anyway) a person who began life as a man then got a certificate as a female could still commit rape against a woman, which is something only men can do (by definition).

I don't meant to be provocative with this, but I thought it was worth mentioning. The GRA 2004 does allow that some situations exist when the law sees people as their born sex. You doubtless know that already.

Exactly what pombear said

The exact same thing as pombear

In fact so exactly what pombear said that unless she says something really really stupid in the next 10 minutes you can just assume that whatever she says i agree with...forever

So one more time eh?

I seem to remember you posting that before Trousers. Are you now repeating posts about repeating posts? The irony. I almost can't take it.

We noticed.

Hers another nice song

It wasn't broken Lang.

... why we need safe female spaces for vulnerable women, including excluding trans women because all indications so far suggest they retain male pattern offending rates. If are vulnerable. Trans males will need separate spaces and services are usually referred to as trans men having transitioned from female to male.

Your dj skills are a lot better than your arguments.

Another lurker who just wanted to pop on to say thank you to all of you who take the time to keep these discussions clear and focused on the target, which is and MUST be the protection of women and girls.

And just to clarify: transwomen are not women.

"In English and American law, coverture refers to women's legal status after marriage: legally, upon marriage, the husband and wife were treated as one entity. In essence, the wife's separate legal existence disappeared as far as property rights and certain other rights were concerned."

We are the descendents of the women that the law erased, SMG.

Trans males are usually referred to as trans men having transitioned from female to male.

Bless you. Only a tiny minority of the population actually believe the transwomen are women mantra. And even inside that tiny minority, only another tiny genuinely believe that sex change from female to male is possible.

Thank you for finally and explicitly positioning yourself in the fringe fantasist community. Now we can all move ahead discussing these topics with you knowing exactly where we all stand.