Push back via the LibDems?

[Merchfach]

I have met and talked to a local LibDem councillor a few times in the past so when I saw tweets from the LibDem LGBT account calling Mumsnetters transphobes I emailed him and gave him my gender critical POV with both barrels. I said that I couldn't possibly vote LibDem if they regard me as a transphobic bigot.

As a result of this I've been approached by a couple of LibDem people who say they entirely agree with me, they want to take it on within the party but they need gender critical people to join and speak up and make a big deal about it.

Is this a viable strategy? If, say, 200+ women were to join the LibDems and agitate on just that one issue, could we effect a change in policy? Could we, as outsiders, say things that long-term LibDem members who have their lives invested in the party feel they can't say?

I'm thinking about the next general election and the prospect of having no party to vote for. I've never abstained or spoiled a vote before and I'm not thrilled at the idea of having to do that.

Labour is too big and the dudebros are too entrenched and self- righteous to have any effect. The Greens are, I suspect, wallowing in deep misogyny. But the LibDems — could they be encouraged to be the party prepared to take this on? They seem to have nothing left to lose.

I wouldn't be suggesting this unless I'd had a very strong indication that there are people within the party fighting already and looking for reinforcements.

I'm dipping in and out at work here but:

There are other LD women on here too- I haven't made contact with them direct yet.

I'm actually excited about this. Let's do it! Let's have lots of reasonable discussions!

It's the Lib Dem way!

We will have to out ourselves as GC which of course will mean immediate "terf"-dom, from some in the party.

That itself is a good place to start the discussion. Calling people you disagree with names is not the Lib Dem way

I recently left the Lib Dem's over this issue.

I would say by all means make links with gender critical Lib Dems but I think there is zero chance of influencing policy on this.

Many members of the LD LGBT+ SAO are also on the Federal Policy Committee, the Federal Conference Committee & the Federal Executive.

Party policy is voted on at conference- the FPC decides what working groups are going to be set up and taken to conference and the FCC decides what motions and other debates are going to take place.

I think they're feeling pretty chipper at the moment- they're at their highest (or near highest ever Membership) and they've had a few local by elections where they've done spectacularly well. My assessment is that they think Brexit is the big issue, they can differentiate themselves through that and with the influx of new members they can afford to ignore the gender critical amongst us because we're also pro-EU.

I don't think anyone at the centre gives two hoots about Self ID at the moment.

I've been trying to do some reading on the libdems in my area. Found a recent quote from Vince Cable "labour is putting ideology before people." I might be clinging on to scraps here but... does that sound like a leader who likes facts? Y'know those pesky facts such as women are XX and men are XY? And isnt transgender as an umbrella term and as used by TRA all ideology not fact?

Thinking out loud I do apologise if this is waffle.

Mumofthrmoos disappointing but thank you for sharing your knowledge.

I think there is zero chance of influencing policy

I think you may be right Mumof, but before I leave the party I want to make the arguments.

In the style of "democracy doesn't stop after a vote- you keep on making the arguments"

I am prepared to be called a transphobe. If advocating for consideration of women's rights is all it takes.

And if we fail to change policy, then it'll be good argument practice for the next thing. I don't necessarily think influencing policy will be quick, even if it works. And I'm not sure how long I'm prepared to try. But at least for a bit.

The LibDems have shown themselves to be no better than the Tories...we are losing our NHS thanks to their support of the Health and Social Care Act 2012, not to mention the thousands dying due to benefit cuts and sanctions that they voted for, so I will never vote for them again.

Something should be done about whoever has control of that Twitter account though.

Yes, sorry to be so pessimistic.

I think it's still a very good idea to raise the issue with local Lib Dems though - it all helps.

But when Jo Swinson started retweeting all that rubbish about transwomen can be lesbians etc etc it was time to go. I joined many years ago to be counted and I couldn't bear to be counted in the same party that allows people to go around touting #nodebate.

They can't have my money, my Labour and my name on the list if that's the case.

Thanks, Mumofthrmoos, I guess that was what I was hoping for — someone who can speak from experience. If I'm going to invest time and energy and emotion it has to be in the place where there's at least a chance of having some effect. I'd forgotten about the Brexit policy — and I can see that a lot of people will head over to the LibDem camp because of that and they're investing their energy in that policy. Pwoooof, as French friend of mine says when an idea goes up in smoke...

@transauthor Sue Green, CEO of Mermaids, took her child to Thailand for reassignment surgery aged 16 and discussed the size of said child's penis on national media. This information is in the public domain. So when you say that no children are transitioning, you are wrong because Sue Green's child did.

Our primary concern as feminists is the erosion of female spaces and legal protections for females on the basis of our biology, which is inevitable if self-id goes ahead as outlined by Maria Miller. Other countries with self-id, like Ireland, retain certain sex-based exemptions: Miller's report recommended retaining almost none.

You say that being trans isn't a choice, but you fail to define trans. The trans umbrella includes cross-dressers, and that is a choice as I know from my own youth spent socialising as a "drag king" in male formal clothes. Even in men's clothes, I used the women's loos because I am female no matter how I dress. Trans people with gender dysphoria are the ones who have no choice because they have a structural difference in their brains compared to non-trans people((1)) and deserve protection, including some access to female spaces if their dysphoria is so severe that they must undergo full social transition supported by a medical practitioner. This access must be gatekept to protect females and this gatekeeping is why the GRA is needed. Female spaces were set up for a reason: to protect women and girls from rape, harassment, assault, voyeurism, and other crimes perpetrated by males taking advantage of us at times when we have to be naked or vulnerable. The need for female-only spaces has not gone away and the kind of male who feels entitled to enter a female space just because he sometimes puts a dress on is the kind of male who does not respect females' boundaries and should not be in female spaces.

(1) www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17352-8
"After controlling for sexual orientation, the transgender groups showed sex-typical FA-values. The only exception was the right inferior fronto-occipital tract, connecting parietal and frontal brain areas that mediate own body perception. Our findings suggest that the neuroanatomical signature of transgenderism is related to brain areas processing the perception of self and body ownership, whereas homosexuality seems to be associated with less cerebral sexual differentiation."

Tbf merch, I think you may be suffering the deflation that comes when a simple plan turns out to be fraught with obstacles. I know this feeling well

If you do want to try and influence policy, you'd be very welcome to join me.

I'd like to point out to new posters/members that it's a good idea to read the rules and guidelines of a site when you join it.

On Mumsnet, if you are offended by a post, you use the report button to alert the moderators, who will check it and remove it if it breaks the guidelines.

If you screenshot the offending post, then put it on Twitter, it gets repeated across Twitter and this makes you look hypocritical and spiteful.
It shows everyone that you care more about scoring points for your cause than you do about the child you claim to be defending.

I'm a lib dem member but not active because of this.
Well up for trying to make some changes from within. I don't know how it all works though, but happy to get involved.

Current member here - was roundly attacked by the Lib Dem LGBT twitter account for suggesting they might have misjudged their RT of the data breach. Was accused of supporting a new s28, despite them knowing exactly nothing about me or my political views.

Watching this thread with interest.

OP I think you should make this thread in AIBU to REALLY have an impact!!

^yup 'AIBU to day lets push back via the LibDems?'

(Also to pp who can't forgive libdems for the coalition... they slowed the conservatives cuts down for that time. After that the cuts came in on mass for community projects, social care etc etc)

Hello lib dem chums!

Brian Paddick'si received a twitter pasting for saying that A Woman's Place is not anti trans.

One of the twitter-ees is Zoe O'Connell who is vice chair of the Federal conference Committee mum mentioned upthread, as well as the LGBT+ Lib Dems. One of Zoe's responses to Brian:

You are publicly tweeting in support of an organisation that hosts people who make violent threats against trans people and works with people trying to associate us with paedophiles.

This is not supporting trans rights. You are supporting hate.

(For anyone unfamiliar with the situation, this is not a fair description of WPUK)

Brian's doing a decent job of arguing for freedom of speech and for lib dem members who may want to attend WPUK meetings. Note he's not even publicly agreed with WPUK's aims- just that they are not an anti trans group. He's now (not surprisingly) saying he feels bullied and overwhelmed with the whole Twitter onslaught.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3226849-Lord-Paddick-resigns-the-LGBT-LD-executive

I might drop him a letter of support on this, although not via twitter.