Push back via the LibDems?

[Merchfach]

I have met and talked to a local LibDem councillor a few times in the past so when I saw tweets from the LibDem LGBT account calling Mumsnetters transphobes I emailed him and gave him my gender critical POV with both barrels. I said that I couldn't possibly vote LibDem if they regard me as a transphobic bigot.

As a result of this I've been approached by a couple of LibDem people who say they entirely agree with me, they want to take it on within the party but they need gender critical people to join and speak up and make a big deal about it.

Is this a viable strategy? If, say, 200+ women were to join the LibDems and agitate on just that one issue, could we effect a change in policy? Could we, as outsiders, say things that long-term LibDem members who have their lives invested in the party feel they can't say?

I'm thinking about the next general election and the prospect of having no party to vote for. I've never abstained or spoiled a vote before and I'm not thrilled at the idea of having to do that.

Labour is too big and the dudebros are too entrenched and self- righteous to have any effect. The Greens are, I suspect, wallowing in deep misogyny. But the LibDems — could they be encouraged to be the party prepared to take this on? They seem to have nothing left to lose.

Merchfach I think I'm pretty much where you are. I have the tiny teeny amount of hope that libdems might be a suitable party for me to vote for and I'm considering contacting them to discuss women's rights, benefits and brexit.

Merch and Wander, you're correct, I will write to them, our voices need to be heard.

Up to 80% of children grow up to be happy with their sex if left alone.

But yes, that's fine, broken ribs heal and respiratory problems which prevent healthy young women from even running a short distance will get better, though it took months after removing the binder in this case.

Please stop telling me to tell lies in the name of 'respect'. I will not call a man a woman. Truth is important. Even if it hurts feelings. I respect someone's right to believe they are female. They have NO right to demand that I collude in this belief and speak lies. Sorry.

PS I have no respect for Susie Green, who has hounded a mother of four and wasted police time simply because the woman spoke the truth about what SG did to her child.

Anybody would think you'd been sent here by the LibDem LGBT squad to try and derail this thread, TransAuthor.

Indeed! I'm sure that's not TA's intent but interesting they're unable to engage with the issue at hand.

Perhaps also a sign of hope - we can expect resistance, but not resistance that actually engages with our argument?

They NEVER engage with the argument, Anlaf.

They -

Start with empty, truth terminating cliches. Transwomen are women. Some women have penises. With a smattering of falsehoods. Transwomen are the most oppressed in the world. Transwomen suffer more violence than any other group. Terfs cause transwomen to commit suicide. Etc, etc.

Then continue by saying that we're all such mean, horrific transphobes, on the wrong side of history, denying trans people's existence, Etc.

Then flounce off when they've run out of steam repeating the above and realise they have no actual logical sensible argument to counter those that are being put forward by women.

Merchfach

Do us a favour, would you? Be a good chap, go and start a thread of your own and allow those of us who want to discuss the LibDems to do so. Thanks.

Sorry for going off topic there myself. The Libdems are the only party I've ever donated money to and they used to be my party of choice. But I honestly now believe I'll never vote for them again. Not the current version of it anyway.

What a surprise! This thread is being derailed also by the same poster, who I don't think really understands the POV that the gc women, men and transwomen here have regarding some of the issues around trans rights etc.

My area is a strong, active Lib Dem area and I've considered joining for other reasons. I'd be happy to join and try to unmuddle all this muddle so that trans people and women are not being bashed against each other constantly. I'm not sure how good I am at political stuff but I'd have a go.

I have a professional concern about a lot of the "trans umbrella" and pushing of stereotypical sexist ideology and also child protection concerns.

SwearyG I think I recently found you on twitter and now I want to be your friend - I had a similar awakening regarding believing the patriarchy all these years.

I want to have faith in at least one political party, and I have voted LD often in the past. But if we need to convince them that a women is an adult human female and those human females need words to discribe themselves and their experiences, I don't have faith that they understand what I need from a political party.

I'm not about to spend my time and energy getting politicians to be 'brave enough' to state facts.

Indeed Bourbons

And then say what a terrible cesspit mumsnet is, to discourage others from coming here and engaging with views.

There was a debate, near enough, in one of the Lib Dems Facebook policy groups quite recently. It was quite heartening, and you can see there that the level of one side of the debate is:

Transwomen are women and if you disagree you are a transphobe. End of.

Repeat.

There were a number of dissenting and questioning voices though. And what will happen if they are exposed to more of the actual arguments?

I’m not on Twitter, but have seen some of their tweets screenshotted here eg describing EH as a whistleblower. Is there an easy link re LDLGBT to send to my LD MP (who has made bland assurances in a letter to me) to ask her what her thoughts are on that Twitter account?

Remember today when there was rampant misogyny just about everywhere?

The LibDems are just awful. They disclaim any connection with the vile LGBT twitter feed but it carries on, and carries on using their logo.

Merchfach -
"Anybody would think you'd been sent here by the LibDem LGBT squad to try and derail this thread, TransAuthor.

Do us a favour, would you? Be a good chap, go and start a thread of your own and allow those of us who want to discuss the LibDems to do so. Thanks."

Lol I can assure you I am not a LibDem. I'm a bit of a commie to be honest.

Something, something persecution complex?

I'm a bit of a commie to be honest.

Really? You have a class analysis based in material reality and power relationships evidenced by the dialectic? I thought you were a proponent of the hyper-individualised identity movement, since that's what you appear to be arguing hereabouts. I'm surprised.

I agree with you, which is why I'm putting this out there. I don't want to waste my time and effort fighting this issue through the medium of the LibDems, as it were, if there is no hope of influencing their policy.

But as I see things (and it's just my pov and I'm not a very sophisticated political thinker) they are pretty down and out at the moment. One thing that they could do to distinguish themselves from the other parties is to take a GC line and state that they will support trans rights but safeguard and strengthen women's existing rights. Then they would have something to offer all the thousands of voters that Labour is shedding. They would become the only party that I, as a GC feminist, could consider voting for.

I wouldn't be suggesting this unless I'd had a very strong indication that there are people within the party fighting already and looking for reinforcements. I get the feeling that Labour and the Greens managed to kill off the debate some time ago.

There seem to be mixed opinions here: either that the LibDems are a lost cause or that it might be worth investing some time and energy. I guess I was hoping it would be clearer cut and make my decision easier!

I don't think the LD are any worse than any other party, and I see what you mean about them being more likely to at least enter into a discussion.

I know they were at one point talking about building up their support at a very local level,so I think there is scope for individuals to be very influential.

It's possible that the Lib Dems are beyond resuscitation after the coalition debacle, especially in the short term. But we are desperately in need of a centrist / centre-left party at the moment. I tried to get behind the LDs in the last election because of Brexit, but they didn't make enough impact.

Is it a waste of time trying to revive the Lib Dems, rather than try to halt the momentum (pun intended) of Labour's brocialist takeover?

Transauthor

What did you think would happen when transgender advocates publicly took the misogynist position that women's rights are anti trans?
100 years ago the misogynists took the position that women's rights were anti men.
Women organized then to promote women's rights just as we are organizing now to protect women's rights.

Merchfach the answer depends entirely on your energy levels, on the time you have available, your patience and your capacity to deal with the emotional labour and mental effort required to take something like this on.

I've thought the LibDems were a lost cause ever since Clegg went into coalition and did what he did there. I know all about Realpolitik - the coalition itself wasn't the issue for me. I understand small parties can make valid and important contributions if they share power. What I hadn't know was that Clegg & Co were Orange Book LibDems which is a completely different ideology from the one they espoused before the election.

However, I do not think they are beyond redemption. I know I probably shouldn't say this out loud but I also don't think conservative parties are inherently evil - but we have been unfortunate in the UK recently.

I'm going to try to work on this from the outside. If you have the opportunity to work on this from the inside, why not? Got a feeling it's going to take a lot of effort to protect women's rights.

I remember Alastair Campbell talking about new centre party being formed, just before the last election. I don't know how serious it was, but I haven't heard anything since.

It’s a worthwhile discussion to have, sorry OP that it hasn’t made it any clearer :)

I’d consider the LDs if they took a gender critical position, although I’d wince a bit, being a rabid Brexiteer. I did actually contact the Libertarian Party UK on this, and they said they don’t have any truck with identity politics, which is a start, although there is a bit of a dudebro feel to the whole thing, and I wonder if they’d consider women asserting their rights as a sex as identity politics too.

drifts politically

It is absolutely worth raising the questions and concerns from here and places like WPUK within any political party. A lot of people just aren't aware of them or have misinformation.

Any shift in the debate will impact other parties too.