My daughter perceives me as 'bigoted' re transgender issues.

[FunderAnna]

Two days ago I posted the following on Facebook

"A survey from employers asks 'What is my gender identity' and gives 4 possible answers.

1. Male (including female to male transmen)
   
2. Female (including male to female transwomen)
   
3. Non-binary (for example, androgyne)
   4)Prefer not to say.
   
   There is no option for me just to state that I am female."
   
   Within minutes I got a Messenger response - including screenshot - of this post from my daughter saying she couldn't see why this was an issue and she'd like to understand at some point.
   
   I messaged back saying yes we could discuss it at some later point and adding a bit of chat. I tried three times to send it and then realised she had blocked me.
   
   Yesterday after I'd emailed her she said that my posting that had made her feel incredibly upset and that she perceived the post as 'bigoted'.
   
   I think I'd find responses from feminist Mumsnetters quite helpful at this point. My daughter has just started her final term at university so it's best if I remain fairly calm about this one. We generally are close and get on well. As I only have a PAYG mobile, messaging each other by FB had worked well as a way of having the odd quick chat. Email feels more distant.

[Trousersdontmakemeaman]

@TripleRainbow

In terms of collecting data for inclusion purposes trans people are at a disadvantage if there is not a box specifically for them.

If it's not known whether a person is transgender how can data be collected to determine if transgender people are discriminated against or fairly represented.

I work in HR data and I have no idea what this actually means. What does it mean? You have posted it here as if it is some sort of useful explanation and yet is has none at all. Are you able to explain any of this? Fairly represented for example? How is that shown by capturing this data in this way? Discriminated? Again tell me how that is helped by this survey structure?

Those words are quoted frequently as if there was some actual purpose to all this monitoring, other than to force us to comply with gender ideology. There isn't.

There was a thread a couple of weeks ago where some woke HR D&I person posted a gender pay gap. They had lumped all the "identifiers" into a box marked other. They had excluded them from the pay gap calculation obviously. What is the point of that? Someone asked if "others" pay gap was calculated? The author was stumped. No answer. None is possible, it's a complete dead end. What is the point of this. Any ideas? I would really like to know as this is my day job.
I imagine its even bigoted to say this. In the real world we simply delete data like this as it just fucks up the work you are doing for the rest of the world.

[Merchfach]

Pah, didn't read on far enough... Sorry.

I'm with Sir Vix, I don't identify as anything, I am a woman. Sounds as if in querying the person who supplied the survey you've done exactly the right thing.

[senua]

my daughter saying she couldn't see why this was an issue and she'd like to understand at some point.

Send her this quotation from Lionel Shriver. I think that it hits the nail on the head:

"Our preoccupation with gender identity is a cultural step backwards. For me, the self transcends sex."

Gender-labelling should not be a thing in the 21st Century. If we believe in equality of the sexes [you know, like allowing people like your DD to (a) attend University and (b) graduate. If she knows her history then she will realise that this is only a comparatively recent thing] then we should have moved beyond gender.

Send her this link

[LangCleg]

I kind of see this TG stuff as a religious cult that has brainwashed the young people. So they fully buy into it. You won't be able to critique it without them taking it as a personal attack. Obviously it's not a personal attack. But your daughter has reacted as if it is one.

Yes, me too.

I'd not worry about it too much, OP. Adolescent flounce. They do that. I wouldn't push the issue either via email or IRL. There may come a point when she is ready to hear your view and you can give it then. There may not, in which case just talk about other things.

[ijustwannadance]

^Let's just remind ourselves of the meaning of the word 'bigot' :
'a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions.'^

Yep, i've said this before. Can't get much more bigoted than a TRA.

Your DD is at uni where they serve cheap koolaid by the pint. If all her woke mates see posts on her FB wall then she is probably getting shit for it.

[Kyanite]

My daughter is 18, she tells me that all this is coming from the Social Justice Warriors in the US and it's all over Tumblr and Reddit.

To share about my daughter, she has some gay friends but none are trans. She's never had any quandaries about her sexual preference (that I'm aware of but she's always been very open with me), and thankfully hasn't been whipped up into this, her focus now being self-expression and her music.

She is a private person and very sensitive, who doesn't like being in shared situations with other girls/women let alone someone male bodied. She is concerned about any law change.

[Mumsnut]

'I don't have a gender. I have a sex and a personality.'

[Hyppolyta]

I dont think its bigoted.

I know Im a woman as I kept memstruating, ive been pregnant and given birth.

I dont have a female gender. Still not entirely sure what its meant to mean but Im quite sure I dont need a gemder of any form.

If we can choose no religion, as I dont believe in it, why cant we choose no gender?

[SirVixofVixHall]

Sex plus personality. Quite. That is what “identity “ amounts to and yet there is all this spin. I can only conclude that an awful lot of pay packets are dependant on this tripe.

[ArcheryAnnie]

I have started to lead with the argument that trans rights activism, and the whole notion of an inner gender identity which trumps biological sex, is inherently sexist and homophobic (because it is). That helps to nip in the bud the positioning of one "side" of this argument as old-fashioned, conservative, bigoted etc.

It's trans ideology that's inherently conservative and anti-progressive. There's nothing progressive about tying gender presentation to whether you are in reality male or female, there's nothing progressive about denying women the right to organise autonomously, and there's nothing progressive about telling lesbians they must learn to accept dick.

The bigotry and old-fashioned conservatism is entirely on the trans ideology side, and it's bloody depressing to see how many young people have bought into this bullshit.

That's how I'd lead that conversation, OP! (Because that's what I believe.)

[TripleRainbow]

*Trousersdontmakemeaman
*
I did not say the survey shared by the OP did any of those things. And I was not trying to provide a 'useful explanation' of the survey.

The earlier responses in this thread accused the OP of being a bigot which I do not agree with. As the thread seemed occupied by bigot- yellers I was pointing out that questions like this disadvantage trans people too.

The survey mentioned by the OP should refer to sex not gender (unless there is another box for sex).

By gender replacing sex women are disadvantaged.

Most companies gather data to monitor equality and diversity. Ethnic origin/religion/disability etc. so I see no harm in asking people if they are/identify as trans, whether people choose to answer is up to them.

It is claimed that transgender people experience discrimination, but if transgender people do not also have a box asking if they are transgender then it cannot be monitored.

Are you really saying that in your HR role you just delete the equality and diversity data?

[SirVixofVixHall]

@ArcheryAnnie I completely agree with you.

[ArcheryAnnie]

I will never understand this obsession with posting crap on social media to get a reaction.

And yet here you are, ShellyBoobs.

Why is it so hard to understand that some people use a communication platform to communicate?

[HerFemaleness]

University students are vulnerable to recruitment from cult. It's to with having a reasonable amount of intelligence combined with a reasonable lack of wisdom.

www.theguardian.com/education/2000/jun/20/highereducation.students

This article talks about religious cults, but if you check this other article out, the section under 'how cults recruit' has some practices which seem rather familiar ...

www.theguardian.com/education/2003/oct/01/students.familyandrelationships

[velourvoyageur]

It's understandable that most young people want to support trans people in living their lives without prejudice from others hurting them.

The language people so often use in this debate - 'support', 'living their lives without prejudice' - is so insidiously manipulative in its vagueness. Of course no one wants to stand in the way of this nebulous support, whatever it is, the language used is so innocent that you can only be a decent person if you agree with that statement 100%, but people don't realise at first that if you want people to qualify you as such - as an ally - you then need to toe the line re: the exact type of 'support' they have in mind. 'If you're not with us you're against us' - this kind of thinking primes us for #nodebate type idiocies. It's sad and ironic that people think support of gender-conforming individuals needs to take the form of reinforcing stereotypes which are based on the matching of sex and the appearance we expect from that sex. Agreeing with someone that their body does not match their mind and what then needs to be done is to radically change their body to make sure both elements are seen to conform to the same side of a conceptual binary that doesn't bloody need to exist - I really do not see that as 'support' - they create the problem. Self righteousness and oblivious hypocrisy, not a pleasant combination. But if you use language in such a way that people can't help but agree with you, but you don't at the same time clarify the actual terms attached to using such language, and where these terms are much more specific than what normal usage of the term entails, and you have the resources to establish yourself as the authority on what constitutes 'support' (e.g. Mermaids UK)...you end up with a situation where you can very easily trap people into being spokespeople for your agenda, starting from when they use everyday words like 'support'. E.g. 'Oh I'm not sure I would date a transwoman' - 'I thought you said you wanted to support trans people'? To the point where when saying 'I support trans people', it will be automatically assumed that your politics are libfem/TRA and not gender-critical. You can condense a million imperatives into ordinary words and have them enforced with no effort by hitching a ride on their emotional pull, which is quite independent of specific context and so not contingent on whether you actually originally believed in the agenda, but rather on whether you're a person who simply believes 'support' is a good thing (99.999% of the population). Of course young people are very vulnerable to this.

[Trousersdontmakemeaman]

The gender pay gap compares M to F.

The formula excludes category 3 and 4 above. The survey structure above effectively deletes those people from the gender pay gap.

Individuals picking option 3 and 4 have identified their way out of the gender pay gap, they have chosen to delete theirselves from this work?

We don't have much choice here do we? If they opt out of M and F then they are opting out of inclusion in the gender pay gap work.

[dinosaursandtea]

I’d consider you bigoted and probably start reducing contact.

[Itsneversunnyinwales]

The bits in brackets after 1 and 2 are surely round the wrong way?

[Juells]

Wow @velourvoyageur

Brilliantly explained.

[SirVixofVixHall]

Dinosaurs- really ? With your own mum ? For holding a different opinion ? Blimey, your friendship pool must be rather ..er..narrow.

[FunderAnna]

I’d consider you bigoted and probably start reducing contact.

I think this is the possibility which does alarm me, though the scenario is a rather melodramatic one, and the likelihood is that on further reflection she may come to accommodate our differences of viewpoint .

My daughter will probably graduate this year - it's possible she may do another year's study. But she doesn't have her own home or income or definite career plans. Her father and I are her main source of financial support, as well as giving her the sorts of emotional support that parents aim to give young people in the difficult journey towards independence. Obviously she had loads of student friends, a boyfriend etc. But they're all taking exams too.

So the timing of this flare-up isn't ideal. I shall endeavour to remain calm though....

[ArcheryAnnie]

dinosaursandtea and if you were my child I'd wonder where I went wrong in raising someone so prepared to throw women and especially lesbians under the bus.

[Teacuphiccup]

Thanks for that illuminating contribution dinosaurs maybe you would like to expand and say what exactly you find bigoted about not identifying with the gender binary and instead identifying with your biological sex.

[ArcheryAnnie]

I think this is the possibility which does alarm me, though the scenario is a rather melodramatic one, and the likelihood is that on further reflection she may come to accommodate our differences of viewpoint.

I think once she's away from the rather ghastly area of student politics she might calm down a bit. The trans rights activists really do lean on the "you want to be a good, kind person, don't you, don't you???!" angle, and it's hard when you are surrounded by all that - and especially when you see people punished for stepping out of line - of course it's easier to fall in with that orthodox trans cult thinking.

But If you just keep lines of communication open, and emphasise that you believe the things you do because they are progressive, and you think her way of thinking is weirdly old-fashioned for someone so young, you might at least introduce an element of doubt.

Good luck, OP. I think I'm going to face this situation in a couple of years, if not sooner - although my DS has had a lot more exposure to both sides of the argument already, even at his age.

[MsMcWoodle]

You are not bigoted. Maybe you should have talked to your daughter a bit more about the issues earlier on, however you are right and if you keep the lines of communication open I'm sure she will come round. It's a fashion.