My daughter perceives me as 'bigoted' re transgender issues.

[FunderAnna]

Two days ago I posted the following on Facebook

"A survey from employers asks 'What is my gender identity' and gives 4 possible answers.

1. Male (including female to male transmen)
   
2. Female (including male to female transwomen)
   
3. Non-binary (for example, androgyne)
   4)Prefer not to say.
   
   There is no option for me just to state that I am female."
   
   Within minutes I got a Messenger response - including screenshot - of this post from my daughter saying she couldn't see why this was an issue and she'd like to understand at some point.
   
   I messaged back saying yes we could discuss it at some later point and adding a bit of chat. I tried three times to send it and then realised she had blocked me.
   
   Yesterday after I'd emailed her she said that my posting that had made her feel incredibly upset and that she perceived the post as 'bigoted'.
   
   I think I'd find responses from feminist Mumsnetters quite helpful at this point. My daughter has just started her final term at university so it's best if I remain fairly calm about this one. We generally are close and get on well. As I only have a PAYG mobile, messaging each other by FB had worked well as a way of having the odd quick chat. Email feels more distant.

[CuppaTeaAndAJammieDodger]

FunderAnna - I don’t think the posters referring to the influx of new posters on the feminism board are talking about you.

And no, you aren’t bigoted. Plus I’m not sure what the survey is trying to achieve - if they want to know people’s “gender feelz” then it’s fine I guess, but if they’re trying to gather data about employees sex then of course it’s a load of bollocks.

[PositivelyPERF]

Thank you Jayceedove. That was a wonderfully clear explanation.

It’s the victim mentality that this new trans generation proclaim, that the ‘woke’ people seem to be in love with. When we were younger we didn’t have the easy access to the internet and unlimited TV channels, so it was actually easier to ‘feel special’ as there were so many ‘real’ causes to fight for.

I think the trans thing (not including real transsexuals in this BTY) has become so popular because no matter what young people want to do, to feel special and unique, it has already been done before. I do worry that this obsession with ‘self’ will have a detrimental effect on real causes. Genuinely needed causes may get less volunteers and support as the woke people are too busy screaming bigot and trying to become internet famous, because they’re ‘trans’ and such victims. Let’s face it, many of the well known faces that publicly represent the trans community are completely talentless and would otherwise be living lives of anonymity. It’s their, shouts of BIGOT and self proclaimed victim status, that keeps them in the public limelight.

[Lancelottie]

Thanks from me too, Jaycee. I don't always agree with all you say but at least I can understand what you're saying and think about it properly.

OP, I really don't see the point of those gender boxes. If anyone could tick any of them depending on how they felt that morning, what will the results actually tell the company?

I'm not even being totally frivolous here. Stonewall's definition and at least one online 'spot your gender' test would have it that I'm a closet transman despite the three lots of maternity leave.

[pigmcpigface]

Perhaps you need to listen to your daughter more than she needs to listen to your explanations. There's every chance that she's read more and is more clued up on this issue than you are.

[PositivelyPERF]

There's every chance that she's read more and is more clued up on this issue than you are.

I doubt it.

[Teacuphiccup]

yet

It was a useful experience to be honest, and I did actually learn a hell of a lot about myself and I wouldn’t discount my education entirely.
However what was the most toxic thing was that there was no room to question the system or hive mind beliefs. There was an illusion of ‘openness’ and we were contsantly told to ‘fail and make mistakes in order to learn’ but any slight deviation from party line was swooped upon and the culprit could be ostracised. Bear in mind these people also marked our degrees and we could lose marks for ‘process’ which basically meant how well we behaved.

Early on I stupidly took them for their word and thought it was a safe space to voice concerns.
There was a girl in my class who self harmed when she was younger and had very visible and very intense scarring right down from her neck to her wrists and all over her legs. She had had therapy and was no longer cutting and obviously wanted to get on with her life. In one class our course leader shouted at her that she wasn’t interested in the ‘trite’ she was making (she had made a lovely piece of work) and it was time to ‘name the beast’ she didn’t say it but we all knew what she meant, she wanted this woman (who was 17 as it was a Scottish degree) to revisit her trauma and make work about her self harm.
I was fuuuuuurious and stood up for the student in a very polite way and said that I completely disagreed with the lecturer and no one should have to ever revisit trauma (I’ve never been able to keep my mouth shut) and was reprimanded for being a ‘bully’ (yes a first year student was apparently bullying the leader of a course by pointing out that directing a student to talk about their self harm wasn’t appropriate) and made to sit out of two lectures, I also lost marks on that module for not being a ‘team player’.

Totally off thread sorry but I just remembered that and wanted to share.

[OvaHere]

Christ teacup [shocked]

[Duddlepluck]

Think I'd have crossed through the question and noted "not applicable, I don't have a 'gender identity'. I have a sex - woman/female"

[Italiangreyhound]

Good to see the transsexual women on the thread. It's just so frustrating that not accepting any male who ids as female is considered bigoted where as throwing females and transsexual women under the bus is considered 'woke'.

I'm the meantime self Id comes through back door and if they make it law it may well cut funding and genuine support for transsexuals.

[ChickenMe]

It's "not very nice" to be called bigoted so it tends to shut people down which is the whole idea
I just had to fill in a form asking for gender and one of the options being female (which isn't a gender - duh!!). So i wrote sex:female and will continue to do so on all forms.

[YetAnotherSpartacus]

teacup - I'm seriously shocked. That poor girl and poor you. I don't recognise your shockingly bad experience in my work, thank goodness.

[SirVixofVixHall]

Great post Jaycee.

[Teacuphiccup]

My experience was definitely very extreme, I went to a very small institution who thought they were a law unto themselves. It was a creative course and lots of it was about pushing you to your extreme, it’s a controversial course anyway and has been threatened to be closed down a few times.
I thought I was going to learn one thing but it became clear very quickly that they were wanting to breed radicals.

It was also an amazing experience and changed me for the better in lots of ways but my god what a headfuck.

[AbsintheFriends]

How odd that in an age when it's never been easier to get information and to make contact with people all over the world the response of some, mostly young, people is to restrict their information sources and contacts to a small number of 'safe' choices.

This is at the heart of it. So much information, nuance, history, political social and academic background that it takes years to process. Today's teenagers have had twitter, tumblr and instagram breaking it down into soundbites and captions, with gifs and rainbow sparkles. The words hatespeech, bigot and nazi pithily reinforce the message for anyone who might question whether they agree or not.

(I also have daughters who have bought into it. One, who has graduated and is working, is already starting to emerge from the student bubble and understands that common sense, decency and humanity can co-exist with protecting women's rights.)

jaycee I have so much admiration for your patience and the time you give to explaining your situation and perspective.

[AskBasil]

she'd like to understand at some point

But clearly not at this point, as she's blocked you.

Just e-mail her and say that as she's blocked you, she's obviously not ready to discuss this with you but when she is you're happy to discuss with her.

[MoltenLasagne]

How odd that in an age when it's never been easier to get information and to make contact with people all over the world the response of some, mostly young, people is to restrict their information sources and contacts to a small number of 'safe' choices.

The rise of the internet and the closing of libraries is one of the reasons is another reason here. Rather than reading feminist books, deliberating over the ideas themselves and then chatting to friends one on one, it's now possible to get a Sparknotes summary of the book which does the thinking for you.

Its far easier for someone to misrepresent an opponent's argument and build strawmans (strawmen?) rather than genuinely engaging with the issue and this lack of communication across sides is massively increasing tribalism.

[TerfinUSA]

surely the correct answer is 'there is no such thing as gender, fuck off you sexist bastards'?

[CarolinePooter]

Hi OP, you have my deepest sympathy. My grown up daughter takes a dim view of me. I mortally offended her by criticising Saint Jeremy's "transwomen ARE women" statement, and unwisely threw in a few complaints about self id and the all women shortlist. I may have been a bit rude about Eddie Izzard too; I was well into red mist territory by then. The more we argued, the crosser she got, but I managed to leave without too much damage. I was so upset by it all, and really felt harshly judged just for having an opinion. However, we have totally dropped the subject now and are back on friendly terms. I do expect another explosion when I reveal my voting intentions haha. I think it is much more difficult for you because you don't see each other frequently. She is probably regretting being so snappy with you, so a hug and a cup of tea together might help next time you see her. Good luck! PS, I am also wrong on most other things, too, but we generally get along ;-)

[TheDailyMailLovesTheEUReally]

Still waiting to be educated as to why this was apparently bigoted! Interesting how some posters dropped in, passed judgement and didn't bother to respond to - numerous - invitations to explain their thinking. A cynic might say it's because they have no cogent argument...

[Waddlelikeapenguin]

You're not a bigot but it must be awful to have your daughter think it

I am utterly intrigued by someone who wants to be treated as the opposite sex but doesnt have dysphoria - i just cant come up with a reason why. Is it about being uncomfortable being seen as feminine man/masculine woman?


Anyone reading the thread who hasnt already might like to sign the petition "Consult with women on proposals to enshrine 'gender identity' in law"
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

[Jayceedove]

waddle, I agree. I signed it on the first day.

Of course, it should not need a petition given that any politician who could look past their own re-election would have done this without thinking.

Even the dimmest in Westminster should be able to see why asking women what they think about changes that would disproportionately effect them is essential, not an afterthought.

[SirVixofVixHall]

Jaycee as often, your sensible and considerate post makes me think that the current trans activist agenda is terrrible for transsexuals, most of whom women have happily got along with for decades. I looked at the pics of the activists outside the meeting in Bristol last night, and although apparently there were some trans people protesting too, they looked as though they were mostly the sort of young men who would have been at other protests a few years ago. Young white men who will be harassing women in some other way in a few years time, when they have jobs and power. Transsexuals, who have respected the line between themselves and women, and who have gained a greater understanding of women over years of lived experience, are being crushed under this misogynistic agenda.

[nooka]

My university worded it's inclusion survey a bit like this. The questions are very poorly thought through. I suspect that previous versions of the survey simply asked gender :M/F where gender purely meant sex (the biological sort). Then someone 'woke' said oh you can't ask like that anymore, you have to say 'gender identity' or 'do you identify as' otherwise you'll upset the transgender community. So they made that change, and then someone said that you can't just say 'male' or 'female' and the transman/woman pieces in brackets were added. And off it was sent, without anyone thinking through what those changes actually mean and what impact it could have on the data.

Personally I've ticked the 'prefer not to say' box and rage a bit that the organisation would have poor sex diversity data as a result of their very poorly worded survey. I have no problem at all with organisations wanting to check to see if they have transgender employees, and if so if they are experiencing any issues but this survey just messes up the sex data for no benefit to anyone. Instead ask for sex, and include an other and or 'X' option if it's felt necessary. Then ask about gender or even gender identity and give some meaningful options there (not female/male as these aren't identities, I'm not keen on man/woman as identity either but it is at least less ridiculous) and the choice to say 'none' too.

As for your dd OP I'd just leave it. dd and I after a few heated discussions just try and avoid the subject entirely. We both know each others views and there's not really much more to say.

[Ratherbehome]

Do you think your dd might be questioning herself and that's why she took your post so sensitively? I don't think you were bigoted at all. I'd struggle to answer that too because I have no gender identity, I just have a sex.

Sounds like you're limited in methods of contacting your dd now that she has blocked you. I would probably send her an email asking her what it is about your post that she found so offensive that she felt the need to block you. I would wait for her answer before saying my reasoning - that I personally have no gender identity... Assuming that is the same reason for you op... And that I'd be happy to provide the details of my sex, but that isn't what was asked for. I'd probably go further and explain my reasons for thinking it is important that sex is recorded and reasons why I am unhappy with the entire concept of gender identity (that gender=sex role stereotypes and I have a problem with identifying myself in relation to those).

[SophoclesTheFox]

I don't think it sounds bigoted, either.

I'd have struggled to answer. If it asked for gender, I'd have crossed it out and written "sex" or grudgingly checked "female". But asking specifically for gender identity? I'd have been as befuddled about being asked to describe my gender identity as I'd have been to have been asked to describe my soul - I have neither. And more people across cultures and history believe in souls than believe in gender identity...

If I did have a gender identity, it would be about 65:35 masculine:feminine, I reckon. It's certainly not congruent with my sex, no matter how many times I'm told I'm cis. It doesn't match, and I still can't find it! Like a severed daemon or Peter Pan's shadow