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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Reconciling competing rights

317 replies

GaspingShark · 19/04/2018 20:26

Let me start by saying I do know what it's like to have my experience disbelieved, invalidated and gaslighted on an large scale, though not as a trans person or a victim of sexual assault. I don't have PTSD but I do know what it's like to have triggerable sources of distress, again, not as a trans person or a victim of sexual assault.

For me, equal rights must include the right to define your own experience, without gatekeepers, and to be very hesitant to consider people delusional.

So I am unsure about this. I would be ashamed of trans friends seeing me saying stuff such as "I err on the side of including them as much as possible", because I don't think that kind of recognition is mine to confer.

OTOH, I don't know if therefore that means I'm not recognising sexual assault survivors distressed by the fear of male people in women-only contexts.

Is this reconcilable, or does it mean one side just has to grin and bear it? I'll read this thread carefully but due to my bad management of a health condition I can't promise to tend it beyond the OP atm.

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 12/05/2018 20:43

Go back a few decades and you'd absolutely have gay rights having an impact on the rights of heterosexuals in terms of having what they feel are heterosexuals-only spaces violated.

How is this the same type of prejudice when many homosexual people consider elements of transgender ideology and activism to be actively homophobic? As a gay woman, what do you feel about the cotton ceiling?

thebewilderness · 12/05/2018 21:03

Go back a few decades and you'd absolutely have gay rights having an impact on the rights of heterosexuals in terms of having what they feel are heterosexuals-only spaces violated.

Marriage is not a space. What spaces do you define as heterosexual?
Public spaces are sex segregated, not sexual orientation segregated. Do you mean dating sites? I do not think this analogy holds up. Particularly in light of the fact that transgender organizations are targeting Gays and Lesbians.

Original poster
GaspingShark · 12/05/2018 21:31

As a gay woman, what do you feel about the cotton ceiling?
I'm not totally sure that "gay woman" describes me, but anyway, I'm lucky enough to be able to avoid sex with people I don't want, and no trans person has ever pressured, cajoled, remonstrated or tried to persuade me otherwise, Riley J Dennis included.

@thebewilderness. You're losing me... when hypothetical hate crime were we chatting about?

OP posts:
thebewilderness · 12/05/2018 21:34

@thebewilderness. You're losing me.

Good.

JoanSummers · 12/05/2018 21:46

@GaspingShark
You seem to have missed my question, which was really just asking you what you asked us in the first post on the thread. Did you miss this accidentally or are you avoiding answering?

Here it is repeated for you:

Who do you think has a greater right to women's spaces, women or males who id as women?

Ereshkigal · 12/05/2018 21:52

a 5'4 female woman-type-creature partaking of the gay

If you're not a "gay woman" what does this sentence mean?

Ereshkigal · 12/05/2018 21:54

Now you claim to be on the level and not a man, but you're being pretty evasive and disingenuous from where I'm standing.

Original poster
GaspingShark · 12/05/2018 22:25

You seem to have missed my question, which was really just asking you what you asked us in the first post on the thread. Did you miss this accidentally or are you avoiding answering?

Here it is repeated for you:

Who do you think has a greater right to women's spaces, women or males who id as women?

@JoanSummers
You seem to have missed my answer. Here it is repeated for you:

"I'd be inclined to give way if anyone was so timorous as to be scared of me, but I know much bigger butcher women who are as read as males and have a miserable time of it, and this is why my own answer is still I don't know."

Before I get to trans women, where are the trans men in this Platonic bathroom?

OP posts:
JoanSummers · 12/05/2018 22:45

Hmm, no, that wasn't an answer to the question I asked. You've just deflected away from that to talk about butch women (who are women and therefore have the same right to women's spaces as any other women) and then trans identifying women (who are still women so.. get my drift?)

Here it is again:
Who do you think has a greater right to women's spaces, women or males who id as women?

Is your answer just 'I don't know'? In your original post you framed this as:
Males who self identify as women
Vs
Women who have experienced male violence and may be distressed at males in their spaces.

Let's put that back in shall we?

Who, in your opinion, has a greater right to women's spaces?

Males* who identify as women
Or
Women who have experienced male violence and may be distressed at males in their spaces.

*another word for this in English is men. Just to clarify who we are talking about here.

GaspingShark · 12/05/2018 23:11

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

JoanSummers · 12/05/2018 23:11

You know what - you're dwelling on toilets and I'm going to go ahead and assume that's because you want to trivialise this issue. Because you have repeatedly trivialised this over the course of this thread so that would be consistent.

So let's relocate. Let's talk about prisons.

More than 50% of women in prison have experienced domestic violence We can very safely assume that the great majority of that violence was committed by men.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/female-prisoners-women-prison-domestic-violence-victims-more-than-half-prison-reform-trust-report-a8089841.html

Meanwhile, over 40% of males who identify as women who are in prison are sex offenders.
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/up-to-half-of-trans-inmates-may-be-sex-offenders-26rz2crhs

So. Which set of prisoners has the greater right to be incarcerated in a women's prison:

A) men who id as women and are statistically highly likely to be sex offenders
B) women who are statistically highly likely to have experienced male violence

?

JoanSummers · 12/05/2018 23:15

Cross posted.

You're suggesting there should be a third space? In your opinion, should this third space be sex segregated?

thebewilderness · 12/05/2018 23:24

FYI, cis, TERF, and tranny, are all pejoratives that will get your comment reported.

JoanSummers · 12/05/2018 23:31

Pretty sure they know that thebewilderness. I don't think that was thrown in there casually.

Original poster
GaspingShark · 12/05/2018 23:42

a 5'4 female woman-type-creature partaking of the gay

If you're not a "gay woman" what does this sentence mean?

Now you claim to be on the level and not a man, but you're being pretty evasive and disingenuous from where I'm standing.

I'm a woman who doesn't particularly feel like a woman. Who for the record knows I am one, called me a woman on here and it gave me pause, because it didn't bother me but nor did it really sound like me. I dare say I'm as non-binary or gender neutral as plenty of people who define themselves as such but I don't see the need and so I don't. Many women on here have said similar things, I believe. When you do that it's human complexity but when everyone else does it they're shifty fuckers.

As for the gay, I'm going to do you the credit of assuming you don't want to know the sketchy details of my sex life but I'll consider going into it if you insist.

(Post edited by MNHQ)

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 12/05/2018 23:53

Many women on here have said similar things, I believe.

That isn't what they mean and I suspect you know that. They wouldn't balk at describing themselves as an actual woman.

bottleblue · 12/05/2018 23:54

As well as the sex offenders/ DV victims stats in prisons (sorry to derail) there's also the point that loads of women (don't have numbers but worked in a women's prison) are in prison because of having been manipulated/coerced/victimised by men. It's not just sexual safety - its social safety also. If we (ideologically and unrealistically) believe that prisons are for rehab, I think that also needs taking into account. Women need man free spaces to overcome that. Sorry to be off point..

Ereshkigal · 12/05/2018 23:55

When you did call yourself a woman.

Ereshkigal · 12/05/2018 23:58

Do you get why people think "non binary gender" is a bit of a redundant concept?

JoanSummers · 13/05/2018 00:03

I don't think that's off point bluebottle. There are lots of good reasons for women only spaces.

bottleblue · 13/05/2018 00:12

yes. I sometimes feel like the physical violence/threat is focused on a lot - TRA's saying feminists are accusing them of all being rapists etc.. it's really not (all) about that. Any woman who feels uncomfortable about a man in a woman's space then has to compromise her own privacy - mental health stuff/ previous experiences/ whatever to explain why she has a problem to get it sorted - or get out of that space (not possible in prisons). That's a serious competing right in my view - women shouldn't have to make themselves vulnerable like that to get what they need. It's lose/lose - either feel vulnerable scared and shit or feel vulnerable scared and shit.

Ereshkigal · 13/05/2018 00:13

Agree, that's a really good point, bluebottle.

Ereshkigal · 13/05/2018 00:14

Sorry, bottleblue! Blush

bottleblue · 13/05/2018 00:16

no probs - not my real name I just made it up Smile

Original poster
GaspingShark · 13/05/2018 00:25

When you did call yourself a woman.

When I said "I'm a woman."

They wouldn't balk at describing themselves as an actual woman.

The only meaningful difference in our balkiness is they refuse to believe trans women are women and I'm willing to consider that they are. This is getting tedious for all of us, I'm sure.

OP posts:
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