Laurel Hubbard and Fallon Fox - Joe Rogan, Sam Harris, Maajid Nawaz discussion

[Freespeecher]

Hi all, first time (male) poster.

Have been following the gender debate with interest as it chimes with what I see as a wider free speech issue, with opponents who aren't interested in facts as much as blindly following a line and, if you're against that line for whatever reason you're automatically a transphobe etc.

I particularly admire Maajid Nawaz as he talks and argues so well, and, as part of a larger discussion, they start talking about Laurel Hubbard at the 57:26 mark of this video:

Hope you enjoy it and remember, you are not alone in the struggle against the repression of free speech ;)

What does he say?

They explain why they are against m to f trans people competing against women. I thought it was a good discussion over all.

Thanks, I saw this earlier and it was an interesting discussion.

Curiousaboutsamphire
Oh FGS.

Thanks for your link Freespeacher I'll add it to watch later
Welcome.

Thanks for the link. It's good that men can also see it is a crock.

Just watched it.

I'm seeing more men joining the discussion which is great so thanks for this.

My FIL immediately got it when I started talking about TIM in women’s sport. Even if men can’t immediately understand the experiences which inform women’s thinking on sex-segregated spaces, they can easily see the intrinsic unfairness and safety issues with allowing TIM to compete against women.

It’s so frustrating that men saying it is heard and not shut down. I think they’re still a few steps behind though, the “becomes a woman” nonsense needs to stop. You can become a woman by growing up female, not by declaring yourself so.

interactives.stuff.co.nz/2018/03/a-level-playing-field/

I though this was interesting. Pretty well balanced. I don’t agree with the ‚‘conclusion‘ but at leftist it tried to maintain some sense of balance.

The rider under discussion is quoted (but not in that article) as saying that the other competitors were ‚‘just not trying hard enough‘ after recording that winning time.

Thank you @Freespeecher and welcome

SGP

Point taken. I would merely add that they're all able to comment as it's that's sort of arena. If it were Question Time etc I'd imagine that, male or female, they'd be interrupted, talked over etc.

This chimes with another MN thread about mass switching from the Graun to the Spectator. Hardened veteran that I am (I'm on my second of their introductory Parker pens) I get the feeling there's a growing market for a place that offers the chance fora multitude of different voices and opinions to be heard. If the price of that is turning the page if there's someone I really disagree with then it's one I can live with.

I thought it was a good discussion nice to know that commonsense persists. I thought the point that the 'specialists' who were willing to stand up and claim there was no difference, were (all?/mostly?) trans themselves. As opposed to those who actually are the ones being hit, who I'm sure if given a choice, say, between having this transwoman strike you, versus this woman, would know which one they would prefer. The whole skill versus strength, understanding of the difference skeletal structure makes etc, cases and sports where it is possible for (some) women to defeat men this is the level of specialist sport-relevant knowledge (akin to classification in parasports) that would enable fair competition.

That specialist knowledge applied without political bias or judgement, openly and clearly as is done in parasports, that is what we need, not being saved from a scandal by some 40 year old who should never have been on the stage dislocating their elbow...............

Really interesting, I would never have come across this so thanks for sharing! Good to know these conversations are happening elsewhere!

I started listening around the 47:00 mark and I hard 3 men acting as an apologist for biological determinism, James Damore, Charles Murray's Bell Curve and Larry Summers.

Am I the only person on FWR who finds this problematic?

Then they they said that Laurel Hubbard did not have to meet any testosterone level targets, when clearly she did.

At that point I lost interest.

Should be heard, not hard. Apologies for the typo.

SarahAr

I can walk and chew gum at the same time.

I don't have to agree with everyone. There are reasons why men graviate to certain industries and there are different interpretations and opinion for that. I have no problem listening to them.

But if I disagree with someone on something, it doesn't necessarily make me think they are a fascist

No you are not the only one.

The comentaariat are muffled i te same way everyone esle is.

Except here.

Frankly, sport is going to be the arena in which fair play for women will finally get a fair play for women airing but it will take time. The next Olympic games will be a global exposure.

It's pretty ironic that posters get offended by the science behind differences between men and women but are happy to say men and women are different when it's comes to trans people.

Totally agree Sarah these men are apologists for biological deterministic views and that can only end one way they clearly have other agendas and people need to be careful before championing them.

Interesting video. I've never listened to anything by Maajid Nawaz so it was fascinating on that basis alone.

Less sure what I think about Sam Harris, I found some of his arguments a bit wooly so will reserve judgement until I've researched him a bit more.

I thought the discussions around social media and it's impact were good.

Thanks for posting OP, it was interesting to listen to something I might not have come across otherwise.

They are right that men are bigger and stronger all over compared to women so even if men take hormones and have surgery they still have an unfair physical advantage over women and there's no getting away from that fact in sports. Everyone can see it and the evidence from observing transwomen in women's sports shows that it is true.

What are biological deterministic views?

Oh I see so, they've tried to say males are better at playing pool because in pool tournaments the winners are male 99.9% of the time and men are better at maths it's proven because top mathematicians are male 99.9% of the time, without examining sociological conditioning and feminist theory behind this.

But it does get very agreeable during the conversation surrounding TIMs in female sport. Mentions corruption in the IOC. Discusses obvious physiological differences between the sexes.

So in part they agree with biological determinism but also sexual dimorphism durung the discussion. Most feminists will agree with sexual dimorphism but not things like "men are better at maths".

Interesting thanks!

I've heared Joe Rogan discuss TIMs in sport before and he is always right on the money.