Laurel Hubbard and Fallon Fox - Joe Rogan, Sam Harris, Maajid Nawaz discussion

[Freespeecher]

Hi all, first time (male) poster.

Have been following the gender debate with interest as it chimes with what I see as a wider free speech issue, with opponents who aren't interested in facts as much as blindly following a line and, if you're against that line for whatever reason you're automatically a transphobe etc.

I particularly admire Maajid Nawaz as he talks and argues so well, and, as part of a larger discussion, they start talking about Laurel Hubbard at the 57:26 mark of this video:

Hope you enjoy it and remember, you are not alone in the struggle against the repression of free speech ;)

What are biological deterministic views?

It's a denial that socialisation has any influence of people's behaviour.
Black people are naturally more [insert stereotype]
Women are naturally more [insert stereotype]

The article about the cyclist is simple proof that the IOC and other sporting bodies using testosterone level, and testosterone level alone, as the criterium for deciding who is a woman are ridiculous.

She (or he as he was when he competed last year) may have a low testosterone level, but a male heart, lungs, muscles, skeleton, hands and feet and an entire body that has been bathed in testosterone for at least 15 years.

The very fact that this person beat the field of women so comprehensively is proof that they have an advantage.

The point Rogan made about fists and how that is where a lot of the power comes from (in the context of fighting) was a good one. When he balled his fist up to the camera you can see how massive his hands are.

The one that got me with he mountain biker, is not just that they have the advantage of the VO2 max, height, weight and strength etc, but that someone who,has had a male puberty has much denser bones. If they crash they won’t be as badly injured as a person who has had a female puberty. Which has huge importance in a sport like downhilling, they can afford,to take more risks, to go faster as they just won’t need as long to recover from the same impact.

Third space is the way forward...except they don’t feel ‚‘validated‘

The people also went on to excuse the bell curve and I suppose that you all agree with that too. It you want to know where those views lead too please look up that book.

jedenfalls
The stuff.co.nz article quotes two "female" experts on sport who declare that transwomen have no advantage over women. A little probing reveals that they not be entirely impartial on this issue:
twitter.com/MrHenryWimbush/status/978266021516775424

Cromeyellow, that's like the IOC adviser Joanna Harper

Yes, I'm glad that IOC is getting such impartial advice!

And the other, Beth Jones from Loughborough University has the cojones to claim that: "In terms of psychological wellbeing & the distress [trans-identified males] have to go through, the barriers they face—changing rooms, ..., a lot of them have poor mental health—you could argue that puts them at a disadvantage." !!!

More about her in this article

I just don't get it. To quote from that article, she is "a man trying to profit in a woman’s sport" - but she is amazed that people see her as such .

And to add to the confusion - this article is from 2015, before the IOC (using her advice as part of the "evidence") changed their rules. At the time, even she admits that size (basketball) or muscle mass (sprinting) could give a transwoman an advantage - she wouldn't say that now, the current dogma is that there is no advantage at all

Re The Bell Curve by Charles Murray.

Harris' position is that he cares very little for IQ as a useful measure, but he cares very much about intellectual honesty and that he invited Murray onto his podcast after he had been physically attacked at a university campus.

For those following this debate, Harris' latest podcast is an explosive exchange with Ezra Klein about his interview with Charles Murray. It makes it crystal clear what Harris' position is.

Also, Joe Rogan would so get it.

Yes, thornyhousewife was about to make the same point about Sam Harris, the Charles Murray interview and subsequent Ezra Klein spat. Sam Harris was defending the science and the free speech issues and certainly didn't support advocate looking at racial differences.

In the Sunday Times today:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-athletes-face-tougher-entry-rules-in-female-events-wrrmm7vcz?shareToken=27204cd288bc30d60433b93894d57c25

Predictions that the IOC is going to toughen restrictions, including lowering testosterone levels from 10 to 5 nmol.

I just posted this on the other thread about this:

It would be good if someone with a Times log in could post a fuller description of the injuries Fallon Fox inflicted on Tamika Brent. A broken eye socket doesn’t really do the beating and injuries which Tamika endured full justice.

You mean in the comments section boaty ?
Do you have a link to a full list of the injuries?

There are loads of stories about the fight online. This one gives a succinct account: gendertrender.wordpress.com/tag/tamikka-brents/

The suggestion to reduce testosterone levels is really stupid. And interestingly, it's being suggested in order to stop women with high levels and intersex athletes (Caster Semenyu for example) competing, not to stop men .

Even with very low testosterone levels they have all the other advantages of male bodies.

Why can't we just go back to Women Only. Full fucking stop.

It's pretty ironic that posters get offended by the science behind differences between men and women but are happy to say men and women are different when it's comes to trans people.

Ummm. Why is it ironic? Physical differences exist, with whacking great gaps between the averages. Differences in mental/social/emotional/financial abilities are much more blurred and difficult to research because of the overwhelming problems in eliminating other factors.

A little test for you, Antislut: we are a mixed sex couple. Without knowing us, can you accurately say which of us is likely to have each attribute?
Size 13 vs size 4 shoes
Physics degree vs engineering degree
Weight 9 stone vs 17 stone
Plays flute vs plays cello
Height 6 ft 9 vs 5 ft 3
Prefers sailing vs prefers hillwalking

...betcha three of those are easier to assign than the other three.