Trans people's experiences in male-only spaces

[Thanksforthatamazingpost]

Can we talk about this? (sorry if it's been done before).

What experiences are male-born trans people having in male-designated single-sex spaces? What experiences have they had in the past?

How are these experiences affecting later decision?s they make about where to be, how to identify?

Is the behaviour of men - and women who choose to join in policing the definition of acceptable male behaviour - not the root problem here? Can we get more attention on to it?

Transwomen want to use female spaces for fear of Male violence, and yet can’t understand women’s fear of male bodies people?

Third spaces and empathy would go an awfully long way in this debate.

It wouldn’t however serve those people who viciously hate women, whether they wear a dress or not, so why would we work towards this?

I clearly need to rethink Hope! I must have caught him on a bad day.

"Presumably if transwomen had to use male single sex spaces then transmen would need to use women's single sex spaces."

Why do you presume this? If men have no problems with transmen using their space, and I haven't seen any evidence that they do, why should tm stop using them? And surely a "muscled, bearded" transman would pass and have no problems using the male facilities anyway.

thank you, reading with great interest.

most male spaces are there for reasons that are different to female spaces and are created in different ways aren't they?

I've got that head-hurting feeling like I'm on the brink of understanding something important (sadly it hasn't happened yet...)

and men are only ok with women's spaces of a certain kind aren't they?

Why do you presume this? If men have no problems with transmen using their space, and I haven't seen any evidence that they do, why should tm stop using them?

Quite. It would be up to men to decide.

This tricky little concept of consent really does fly over a great many heads, doesn't it?

I don't consent to stranger penis in women's private spaces. Men can consent to stranger vagina in their private spaces if they like. It doesn't negate any decisions I make about my consent.

The problem with a third space is that you can't make anyone use it. We had this discussion during some training at work about homophobic and transphobic bullying. They asked how we could make our facilities more trans friendly (primary school with no known trans kids at present) and someone suggested a third space. I pointed out that trans people would still wish to use the space they identified with and got shut down.

Well, too bad. There are places I don't get to go either.

SarahAR
Transpeople have been using the appropriate single sex spaces in the UK for over 50 years now. I don't see any evidence of a problem.
We are debating what the 'appropriate' space is, people are sharing views on this. You think transwomen using provision for females is appropriate but that isn't everyone's view.
I am not sure how you can possibly say you don't see evidence of a problem. There are 1000s of posts on this board stating female bodied people feel their dignity, privacy and safety is compromised by sharing some provision with people with male sexed bodies.
As the definition of trans expands and changes, the demands for access to provision for females is growing.
Do you think there is any merit in same-sex provision? Perhaps you think provision should be gender neutral/mixed sex, or that provision should be gender specific rather than sex specific? Do you think there is any merit in differentiation between the sexed bodies when it comes to situations where people need to undress/ have intimate care/examination?

It must be incredibly uncomfortable, to say the very least. Which is why I don't think they should be forced to use male spaces.

A third space needs to be campaigned for, just as disabled spaces were, just as women's spaces were.

Either that or we somehow, miraculously revert to the honour-based system that has been working pretty much without incident for decades.

Sadly I don't see that happening.

Women-only spaces are varied as well aren't they?

Historically they have been largely:

• a way of formally withdrawing your sexual availability despite being fertile (a nunnery)
• a way of coralling women so only high-ranking men could impregnate them (a harem)
• a way of women gathering to enjoy each other's company but only in situations where they would not interrupt men (talking whilst carrying out women's work)
• kinship relationships (permitted between nontransgressive women only - Elizabeth Bennett knows that Lydia Bennett will be lost to her sisters forever unless she gets married).

So the idea of a woman-run woman-controlled space not requiring a woman to commit to having or not having sex with a particular man is actually a really new thing?

actually a really new thing?

Yes. And a hard fought for thing. That’s in danger.

As crispbutty makes clear, this is about validation of TIMs as women not about safety. That's why they don't lobby for a third space.

The male violence in mens spaces potentially used by trans women is not really the point. Trans women aren't men, even if it was perfectly safe to use either toilets changing rooms etc thy would still use women facilities

Yes Flora. This is where the competing interests come to the fore. The dignity afforded TW through being treated like a female through accessing provision for females versus the dignity afforded females through accessing provision limited to people with female-sexed bodies.

If the rationale for a provision is based on sexed-bodies (e.g where people undress/intimate card etc.), it makes no sense to involve gender. The Equality Act does allow for provision to be determined by sexed-bodies, where this is a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim. I would be really interested to hear a strong defence as to why people with a beard and a penis should be included on the basis of their gender identity

Thanksforthat

Male only spaces seem to be about retaining advantage and status eg the masons, gentlemen’s clubs and working men’s clubs.

This issue is a real non-starter.

First of all, most places I know of already have a third, single stall, gender neutral/ disabled accessible/ family room. If places around you don't then you should campaign for those cause they're great.

Also, in most places where people are allowed to use the bathroom of their choice rather than their sex there is a 3rd space made available for those (women) who feel unable to use that space because of the opposite sex now occupying it. The obvious solution would be to make that 3rd space for trans or gender neutral people in the first place.

Second, no one has an issue with a passing transman or transwoman flying under the radar in the bathroom of their choice. The vast majority of the time it isn't an issue. No one is insisting on underpants checks at the door.

The problem comes when we say that the trans person gets to decide where they should be and no one is allowed to object, an also that sex-altering surgery isn't a requirement. That's a problem because you're just saying that men are allowed to use womens bathrooms and changerooms and women who are uncomfortable with that can go f* themselves.

If you're pretty sure you pass, use whichever bathroom you want but respect if you're asked to leave because you're making people uncomfortable.

If you probably don't pass completely (and VERY few do) then use the facility that is correct for your sex. The argument swings both ways: If it is safe for a woman to pee in the stall next to a transwoman then it is safe for a transwoman to pee in the stall next to another man. Any justification for letting transwomen use the womens room is also a justification for why they should use the mens room. I.e. "tranwoman just need to pee and aren't interested in hurting you" same goes for regular men. "Transwomen are largely non violent and non offenders" same goes for men. "If a transwoman did behave inappropriately they would face the same legal consequences for comitting a crime inside the bathroom as anywhere else" well same goes for men.

The ONLY justification for letting transwomen use the womens bathroom as a matter of policy is that you prioritize men over women. That's it.

And yes, we don't have a problem with transmen using the womens bathrooms if they choose. Even if they were to get the occasional side eye they would only have to say they are biologically female to make everyone comfortable (and again, most wouldn't even need that, they tend to get pegged as butch lesbians). Or use the mens room if you're comfortable with that. Or use the gender neutral space. there are so many options, none of which involve forfeiting women's right to safety as a group.

I used to be in favour of trans women using ladies toilets, I understood why they would want to use them for safety and I thought sharing facilities with trans women who want to fit in with women was very low risk.

The violence of the TRA, the realisation that a very vocal section hate women and think they are the superior version. The many trans women harassing lesbians for not being attracted to male bodied trans women, largely without censure from the overall trans community, and the implication from that behaviour that some transwomen think all women should be sexually available to them regardless of their personal preferences means I would now feel unsafe.

I don't want to change my stance on this, but if intimidation is being used to force women into a shared space rather than discussion it sets alarm bells ringing.

It comes down to fear of male violence. Some trans women understand and respect this, they are closer to understanding what it is like to be a woman and as far as I'm concerned they are welcome. The activists think they can force women to agree with them through threats of violence and do not understand that it is this intimidation and the threats of violence that is making former supporters start to say No.

What’s changed recently is the population mix - previously, this was a small number of people who had transitioned or were what I’ve often seen called ‘old school transsexuals’ on here. Basically people with gender dysphoria. I would add to that gay men in drag, who I shared toilets with in clubs for years.

There are other 'male spaces'. Prisons, a lot of homeless provision, places like boxing gyms (not strictly but in reality in a lot of them) and so on. There are some that have bitten the dust. Even in my youth I remember there were pubs with a bar and a snug where I was allowed half a pint, not a full one.

"Male only spaces seem to be about retaining advantage and status eg the masons, gentlemen’s clubs and working men’s clubs."

I wouldn't want to find myself in any of those spaces, but that's OK, they probably wouldn't have me, however I dressed.

What you are suggesting is what a few lesbians I lived with practiced some years ago , "Separatism ", wouldn't acknowledge any male persons
but that's the road nobody want to go down , I remember the 1970,s and the NF , and also apartied

this is where my solicitors brain kicks in and points out its inhumaine and degrading
but please feel free to lobby your MP ,

as I keep pointing out any attempts to reintroduce a Clause 28
similar law will see the entire gay community up in arms !
we are not going back to those days !

there has already been threads about closing Gay Saunas on here !

and many of us have also noticed how Black women get treated on these threads

this is where my solicitors brain kicks in and points out its inhumaine and degrading

I don't normally point out SPAG because it's an arsehole move. But at least 3 errors in one sentence about you being a solicitor... I simply don't believe a solicitor would make that many linguistic errors.

There is a separation between spaces for men and women already. There is a difference. Male and female prisons; obviously sensible and humane. Black and white prisons; obviously racist and wrong. Or do you think all prisons should be mixed?

foxy liz - I don't understand your post at all.

I have no idea what Clause 28 has got to do with anything.

Every feminist post I have read on here about sexuality and same-sex provision suggests posters are happy to share with lesbians but not with gay men. This is because of our sexed bodies and the dignity and privacy that is afforded by undressing with people with the same-sexed bodies as us.

There are some posters, but the minority, who think transwomen should change in the provision for male-bodied people. Most think that this would fail to afford transwomen dignity and that a third space should be provided.

there has already been threads about closing Gay Saunas on here !

and many of us have also noticed how Black women get treated on these threads

Links please.

Because that's not MN. That's not who we are. That's not what we do. And this board is decidedly neither white nor straight in its make up.

lol at people still as ever with an anti trans bias, still respinning and re-interpreting years old laws, that are in place with no problems.

so silly.