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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

The MNHQ Moderation Team: Thread 2

997 replies

BarrackerBarmer · 19/04/2018 00:26

Follow on thread regarding the data breach situation:
___

Dear MNHQ

I'm very grateful for the commitment to free speech you've publicly taken, and for Justine's courage this week.

A former disgruntled employee of MN is writing on Twitter about the 'transphobia' of MN staff, and calling you TERFs. She is showing a great deal of bias and intolerance towards women with feminist views, this may well be her honest opinion, which is no big deal I suppose, since she is no longer an employee.

At least, it isn't an issue until she calls a shout out to her
'friends who still work at MN' to report and take down posts by 'transphobic scum', by which she appears to be referring to any poster objecting to being called TERF by her friend.

Regardless of the personal views of the MNHQ staff, who should be as free to hold their own views as I am mine, I am disturbed that there may be a small contingent of employees who are invested in unfair moderation and will not be applying fair-handed principles, at least if the claims of this ex-employee are credible.

Can you please give posters some reassurance that the difficult job of fair-handed moderation isn't being abused by the 'friends' of ex-employees who are 'reporting it all' and taking down posts because any gender criticism means the poster is 'transphobic scum'?

Thank you.

The MNHQ Moderation Team: Thread 2
OP posts:
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Bumblefuddle · 19/04/2018 14:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

IamXXHearMeRoar · 19/04/2018 14:43

Yeh she isn't going to admit to anything other than what she has shown!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 19/04/2018 14:43

I can't be 100% certain - hence contacting the posters affected and the police

But you don't which posters have been affected. You have previously said that she had access to all data. Wouldn't the safest assumption to be that all users may be affected, and that data may well be more than just IP addresses.

BarrackerBarmer · 19/04/2018 14:44

@JustineMumsnet

You're bound to get speculation about whether she was daft nd naive vs a calculated villain. The spectrum of opinions on that.

But that doesn't matter - what matters are that she had means, motivation and opportunity to commit a serious data breach, and she did.

I could believe that she didn't mean to expose the IP addresses. Possibly.

But she certainly meant to harvest screengrabs whilst logged in as a mod, and to do this repeatedly over the time she was employed.
And she certainly intended to transfer screengrabs from a work PC system to her private computer or phone.
(I'm still horrified that this was possible)
And she certainly intended to publicise that she HAD ACCESS to sensitive user data, and confidential HQ conversations, and influence in the mod team through her remaining contacts.
And she certainly intended to post those grabs publicly.
And she certainly intended to provoke a reaction in doing so.

So whether she intended to jeopardise the safety of those three particular posters by revealing their IP addresses, or whether that part was an accident is the least of the issues here. It happened, despite her intent.

But there was definite intent for the other issues I raise, and those need addressing.

OP posts:
RealityHasALiberalBias · 19/04/2018 14:45

They should do that anyway, but what difference does it make if she’s asked?

ChampiontheWonderHamster · 19/04/2018 14:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

spontaneousgiventime · 19/04/2018 14:47

But you don't which posters have been affected. You have previously said that she had access to all data. Wouldn't the safest assumption to be that all users may be affected, and that data may well be more than just IP addresses.

^ Here it is, the full reason why people are scared, why people are threatening to leave MN, why people want their posting history removed. NO-ONE including MN knows exactly what she did steal. NO-ONE and that is the crux of all of this. I wouldn't believe a word that comes out of EH mouth, how could we?

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 19/04/2018 14:49

Re the IP addresses, I AM prepared to believe that she did not see the IP addresses on the screenshots. I didn't spot them initially.

I was however, extremely alarmed at seeing the Admin screen and know the implcations of this being published.

Because it's restricted material and with good reason

However, if you look at those screenshots and see them as they would look on screen, I find it impossible to believe that the IP addresses were not obvious to see.

She may not have realised the implications of the IP addresses from a technical perspective but that she knew damn well she was publishing the sensitive material held in the admin mode for a company that deals with people's data.

And she published these admin screens:

  1. to intimidate the women of mumsnet, for daring to speak out on a subject she disagreed with

  2. To damage the reputation of Mumsnet

  3. And to validate her own opinions and importance

There should be consequences for this.

Waspnest · 19/04/2018 14:49

Justine, I appreciate you answering questions but I think whilst the IP issue is important (legally and morally especially to those posters affected) the bigger picture is that potentially EVERY member of MN is affected by this because we do not know what info EH has taken and who she has shared it with and what they intend to do with it. The anxiety caused by this must be horrific for some people.

But I still support MN and think it's a force for good (which is why I'm so bloody angry that one idiotic person with an overblown sense of her own importance can cause such trouble).

JustineMumsnet · 19/04/2018 14:50

@Bumblefuddle

She never should have been able to screenshot.

Phones in bags. Not used at desk. Access on breaks. Personal phone calls step outside. Use in kitchen.

Facility to screenshot disabled.

No access to hotmail or gmail etc or Facebook or twitter unless for work purposes and that monitored.

Keyloggers so you can go through now and SEE what she took and be able to be certain what she screenshotted

Disable USB ports so people can’t connect phones or thumb drives to take data

I charge for this advice normally you’re getting it for free 😜

I agree this would be best practice if we were holding what's classed as Personally Sensitive Information (such as financial info or medical records). But that's not the type of info we are collecting on registration etc.

Bloomed · 19/04/2018 14:50

"I don't believe she clocked that they had IP addresses at the bottom"
And the basis for this belief is?
Hope you have forensic IT people on this to find out what else she got up to.

rememberthetime · 19/04/2018 14:51

I admire you Justine for taking the moral high ground on this and giving the benefit of the doubt, while simultaneously dealing with the crime and business requirements in a robust way.

It's really important that an example is set to avoid future misuse of material by employees in the future and I guess that the police involvement is for that purpose. And because, a lesson needs to be learned by Emma herself. I suspect that has already happened.

This approach works for me - but then the all guns blazing approach has never quite been my thing. if my details had been leaked (and who knows, they may have been) I would probably have a different mindset completely!

pamish · 19/04/2018 14:51

Catching up and have not RTWT, so has she been arrested and all her PCs and phones taken in for examination? This has to happen after such a serious data theft. Don't give her time to destroy the evidence.

.

NauticalDisaster · 19/04/2018 14:51

Always fun to quoteDonald Rumsfeld and it’s appropriate in so many ways:

Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones.

Bumblefuddle · 19/04/2018 14:53

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Datun · 19/04/2018 14:54

HQ must be going on EH's reaction when she was confronted about the fact that she had plastered stolen data all over the Internet.

If she hadn't realised, she was probably shocked and horrified.

But only because it has legal repercussions.

She has demonstrated, comprehensively, that she is untrustworthy, vindictive, two-faced and someone who not only thinks nothing of betrayal, but is quite capable of maintaining a facade in order to deceive.

It's completely pointless to give veracity to anything she says.

LaundryLaundryLaundry · 19/04/2018 14:55

As others have said, there's only so much MNHQ (or any organisation) can do to prevent this kind of thing. If they have procedures in place, etc. I'm sure they will be found to be compliant. In my industry (STEM) we were given a lot of freedom WRT to tech/internet access (with restrictions on things like file transfers and external drives, which would trigger security alerts) but that worked just fine because anyone who broke their contract and stole protected IP (within the company I worked it happened a couple of times, I think) was made an example of. They basically had their names dragged through the courts and were usually financially ruined by court costs and fines were paid. In on of the two cases I think there was also prison time. That works as a pretty good deterrent most of the time!

Which is why I don't have any sympathy for her. I hope this is pursued by the police because there need to be serious repercussions.

The apology is insulting, frankly.

KeneftYakimoski · 19/04/2018 14:56

I agree this would be best practice if we were holding what's classed as Personally Sensitive Information

Biscuit
Bumblefuddle · 19/04/2018 14:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 19/04/2018 14:57

It’s the entirety of the data you hold. All of it. The content of posts PLUS what’s asked for at sign up PLUS ip addresses plus any other info you collect as part of competitions or surveys

PLUS PMs...

Bumblefuddle · 19/04/2018 14:58

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Tinlegs · 19/04/2018 15:00

Emmageddon....

Geddit.

Sorry. As you were.

KeneftYakimoski · 19/04/2018 15:00

Bumblefuddle is absolutely right.

Here's a list of the data that MN claim they aren't collecting. I have highlighted the ones which are particularly ludicrous to deny.

2 Sensitive personal data.
In this Act “sensitive personal data” means personal data consisting of information as to—
(a)the racial or ethnic origin of the data subject,
(b)his political opinions,
(c)his religious beliefs or other beliefs of a similar nature,
(d)whether he is a member of a trade union (within the meaning of the M1Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992),
(e)his physical or mental health or condition,
(f)his sexual life,
(g)the commission or alleged commission by him of any offence, or
(h)any proceedings for any offence committed or alleged to have been committed by him, the disposal of such proceedings or the sentence of any court in such proceedings.

RedToothBrush · 19/04/2018 15:00

Emma's apology has to be fairly bland from a legal point of view otherwise she risks saying something which would cause more problems for her legally, and potentially for MN.

I am not sure she really could say a lot more under the circumstances (and without legal advice).

I think whatever she said, it wouldn't have have been good enough.

Personally i'm not terribly interested in an apology from her. I just hope she has learned a valuable lesson in life, and other people are more aware of Data Protection issues and personal security issues and learn from it.

I am more concerned about how MN handle things going forward. It throws up a lot of issues and questions about how MN is run. Justine demonstrated last night how lacking they are in some areas.

I know that few companies really are fully compliant and understand data protection law as it stands, never mind GDPR. DH has dealt with people who think they understand on a regular basis, only for him to ask a few questions and find they are shockingly ignorant and lacking in their understanding. People who you would expect to know better and to be handling your data better.

This is something that will only be exposed in time as people make huge fuck ups and these fuck ups have consequences. People caught in the middle of it all, will suffer and be exploited as a result. Its the nature if the beast to a degree.

People do not understand the concept of your data being valuable. The whole thing over Bounty and people thinking they got stuff for free was a real eye opener for me on that score. Until the majority of people understand this as a concept then noone will give it the serious thought it deserves. We are years off that. It will happen in time.

I think Emma should be given a break on a personal level. She's been 'google stalked' due to her own poor understanding of what information she's put out there is her fault but still bloody intrusive and will make her feel exposed. Her naivety over the whole issue, her lack of understanding of her privilege, her very shallow concept of feminism and her piss poor knowledge of how politics fits into every day life are on display to the whole world.

Yes she's acted maliciously and deliberately and fucked people over, but she is getting more than a 'slap on the wrist' just from the public nature of it all. I don't feel comfortable with the idea of 'making her pay for it' on an emotional level that some are saying (the legal recourse is a practical not emotional issue).

An apology never means shit anyway. Its what you do next that matters. Even if it sounded sincere it might not be.

I have one piece of advice for Emma. You don't know it all: don't try to tell people who are older and have more experience that they know nothing. This doesn't mean you are less important or your values less worthy. Sit down and listen for once rather than believing in your own moral superiority alone. Student politics doesn't tend to do that. Grow and learn why. The idealism of youth is utterly crushing when it hits reality. We all go through it in some way. Many here are the product of that effect, for better or worse. Learn to channel your sense of injustice and frustration in better ways. Law abiding and respectful ones.

And for god sake learn the fundamental principle of the law of unintended consequences which frankly I expect any politics graduate to be well versed in more than most.

JessicaJonesJacket · 19/04/2018 15:00

I mentioned her youth. I wasn't minimising what she has done. I think she should face legal repercussions.
My point, perhaps clumsily made, was that time and again in these debates I see young people with no sense of history, with no awareness of context, with no respect for the struggles of women who fought for the rights they now enjoy and with no understanding of why free speech is important.
It's not all young people but it is a worrying trend especially in those circles.They operate in an echo chamber of identity politics which means they are surprised when their actions have RL consequences. I have no idea how our education system has eroded to produce graduates and students with such a poor grasp of reasoning, critical thought and analysis.