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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men making victims use female pronouns in court ~ petition

77 replies

ArtemisRhodes · 18/04/2018 13:57

Arising from the outrage after Maria Mac was obliged to call Tanis "Tara" Wolf a woman in court, some of us have composed a letter to the Judicial Conduct Investigations Office.

So far 372 people (both sexes) have signed it, including Maria. If you wish to add your name, please email it to [email protected]

This is the current draft (we are still making tiny weaks).

Dear sir/madam,

We, the undersigned, are writing to express our concern at the conduct of the District Judge in the above matter.

This case was a charge of assault by beating. The defendant was a 26-year-old man, of approximately 6 feet tall, who violently attacked a small, slight, 60-year-old woman, the witness referred to below. In court, however, the defendant, through his legal representative, indicated that, although he does not have a Gender Recognition Certificate indicating that he has changed gender, he now self-identifies as a woman and wishes to be referred to by female pronouns (she and her).

When a witness takes the oath, they swear or affirm to tell the truth. It is therefore imperative that they make statements in their own words and to the extent of their beliefs. There is no negative judgement or inference in using the terms, man, woman, he, she. These are neutral, factual terms.

When the witness commenced her evidence, she naturally referred to the defendant as he, as he is a man, because it was clearly a man who attacked her, and remains to this day physically and legally male. She was quickly informed by counsel that the defendant wished to be referred to as a woman. She did her best to comply and referred to him as 'the defendant' twice. She was then asked to watch a video of the assault, during which she was asked further questions and she inadvertently slipped back into referring to the defendant as 'he'. At this point the judge stopped the witness’s evidence and reminded her to refer to the defendant as she and her.

This raises several issues:

  1. The witness had taken an oath to tell the truth. By requiring her to use female pronouns to describe an assault that she had experienced as a man beating her, the judge was forcing the witness to recount inaccurate testimony. The witness attempted to comply, as to ignore a direction from the judge could carry a charge of contempt of court, but this proved unsustainable as she recalled the beating.
  1. Trying to remember to use incorrect terminology may have affected the quality of the witness’s evidence. Indeed, the judge, in his judgement, mentioned negatively her failure to use female pronouns every single time. Despite her attempts to comply with the judge’s direction, he accused her of ‘behaving with bad grace’. Other witnesses also referred to the defendant as male, and yet were not admonished.
  1. It can never be acceptable for a judge to tell a victim of a violent, unprovoked assault that her accurate recall of the incident is anything other than good witness testimony. That this appears to have diminished the severity of the sentence is particularly demoralising as, later that day, the defendant boasted on his social media account that he had ‘won’ the case because the fine was low.
  1. The broader question in relation to such a judicial direction is that the quality of witness evidence will inevitably be affected. If a witness is having to recount an event truthfully, but then lie about the sex of the defendant, because he choses to ‘present’ on that day as a member of the opposite sex, this will create confusion for the witness, the court and the transcript.
  1. Forcing a witness to alter their witness testimony on the basis that the defendant later requested the court to recognise a new identity could lead to the unconscionable situation where a rape victim is directed to speak of her male rapist as if he were a woman, if he so demanded. Such a direction would be extremely abusive for the victim.

We are aware that S12 of the Equal Treatment Bench Book, provided to judges and magistrates gives guidance regarding how to address transgender defendants in court. We are not aware of any such requirement of witnesses, who are required to tell the truth, which in this case was that a man attacked a woman.

Giving evidence in court can be a challenging and intimidating process, without having to rethink the wording of one’s evidence to use words that distort the genuine recall of events. In directing the witness testimony in this way, to suit someone who exhibited abusive and violent tendencies towards the victim, this judge materially affected the quality of the witness’ evidence which is not in the interests of justice.

Further, we refer you to paragraphs 13, 14 and 15 of the Introduction to the Equal Treatment Bench Book, which places a requirement on judges to place themselves in the position of those giving evidence and accept that their culture, experiences and knowledge may affect their evidence, and this should be respected, considering the daunting and unnerving experience of appearing in court. In our view, the judge failed to apply this to the victim of the violence but rather directed her to comply with the wishes of the man who had attacked her.

We request that you investigate this matter to see whether justice has been compromised in this case by the judge's action in a) misdirecting the victim b) thereby confusing her and compromising the quality of the evidence she was able to give and c) in taking into account her occasional accidental failure to follow his instruction to use female pronouns and using it to mitigate the sentence awarded to the defendant.

We further ask that you provide further guidance to judges, and indeed magistrates, that they should not interfere with witnesses’ evidence, other than with regard to questions of law.

OP posts:
TerfsUp · 20/04/2018 13:10

Signed!

CircleSquareCircleSquare · 20/04/2018 13:13

I wasn’t being snarky btw with saying I would sign a government petition.
I very much admire and like your letter I just worry about sending my details.
I’ll have a think.

ArtemisRhodes · 20/04/2018 13:28

CircleSquareCircleSquare

No details needed, I am only collecting names, and if you are more comfortable using a pseudonym, such as your maiden name, or your grannie's I would not know that, as I am not asking for proof of ID. The point is, you are given the chance to add your voice. If we did it in a room, with a show of hands, the names would not be recorded, either, so what does it matter?

To put everyone's mind at ease: this list of names is never going to be published. It is only seen by me, and I will append it to the letter on Monday before it is sent. Then it will be only seen by the recipient judicial body, who is bound by law not to reveal the signatories.

What I can also tell you is that many of the people who have asked to be named on this letter are "known names" - writers, academics, the usual gender-critical known names who write articles and blogs and appear on public platforms speaking out about this issue.

If by some extraordinary circumstances members of the TRA were to break into my house over the weekend, hack into my PC, work out the passwords to get into the document, and steal the 450+ names without waking up my household, I think they would be more likely to target the list's "known names" for harassment than to attempt to track down someone called (for example) "Mary Jones", whose location is unknown to them.

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ArtemisRhodes · 20/04/2018 13:29

CircleSquareCircleSquare

I forgot to say, this what we are petitioning about isn't a government matter, it is a judiciary matter.

If you start a government petition as well, about another aspect of this big issue, I will sign it, tweet it and facebook it for you.

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Trousersdontmakemeaman · 20/04/2018 13:38

signed

ArtemisRhodes · 20/04/2018 19:04

Just 16 more names needed to make 500.

cattuk.wordpress.com/judiciary-complaint-letter/

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Trousersdontmakemeaman · 20/04/2018 22:46

Anyone else up for sigheing

Bat Man
Donnie Duck
KC Sunshine

Joking, real people need.

Trousersdontmakemeaman · 20/04/2018 22:47

No sighzfgsing, just signing

rachagnes · 20/04/2018 23:15

Sent an email to sign

ArtemisRhodes · 21/04/2018 13:30

519 people have now signed this petition/letter.

I swore I would stop at 500!

We are sending it on Monday.

cattuk.wordpress.com/judiciary-complaint-letter/

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KittTheCar · 21/04/2018 13:41

Interesting - this whole letter made me think of that case ? last year where a young woman pretended to be a man and had sex with a woman (made her wear a blindfold?) and when she found out, reported to police as a sexual assault and the women who said she was a man went to prison.

How does this case play out if anyone is the gender they say they are, including in court? There would be no case would there. the victim in the above case, the police, the judge, would all say, this is a man who had sex with you, what are you complaining about? The victim would not even be able to report the crime if they are forced to refer to their assailant as a man.

This is a massive can of worms actually isn't it, quite aside from the items flagged in the letter.

OvaHere · 21/04/2018 14:13

Kitt That case was quite interesting. I've mentioned it before on threads because she didn't claim to be transgender or any other gender identity as part of the trial.

I've wondered why because given current thinking it would have bolstered her defence. The only reason I can conclude is perhaps her lawyers advised that a custodial sentence was likely and what female wants to end up in a male prison?

KittTheCar · 21/04/2018 14:55

I suspect also that it wouldn't have helped.

Men are what men say they are and women are what men say they are.

She would have been done for lying to court on top of the rest of the charges prob.

ArtemisRhodes · 21/04/2018 15:04

526 people have signed now.

This letter questions whether the judge was following the guidelines handed down to him from above, or whether he exceeded them and added in some made up stuff of his own.

Once we have a response we are probably going to write to the people even higher up above, to challenge the guidelines because in my opinion they were written for proper transsexuals and not for anyone who wants to flip-flap between the sexes playing the system for their own advantage.

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WhatsGoingOnEh · 21/04/2018 17:03

We request that you investigate this matter to see whether justice has been compromised in this case*

Despite watching Suits avidly, I'm no legal expert. But if a court case is deemed to have been compromised, what happens? Will the bloke get off after all?

Spending2muchtimeonMN · 21/04/2018 21:18

Another case (in the US) where a trans-identified male attempts to murder someone for disagreeing with transactivist ideology and everyone is ordered to refer to them as 'she':

www.meadvilletribune.com/news/local_news/transgender-sharon-woman-admits-to-shooting-co-worker-in-dispute/article_5446d30e-f6e6-5884-bd11-50d2c41ea97d.html

HopScotchy · 21/04/2018 21:40

I think this is such an important issue. Women who are witnesses to their own experience of male violence or other types of male control/harassment must not be in the position of a court imposing the defendant's demands that she frame the experience using his perspective of reality rather than her own.

DCITennison · 21/04/2018 21:46

Ive just emailed, happy to add name.

MipMipMip · 21/04/2018 21:51

Ditto, also sent an email.

ArtemisRhodes · 22/04/2018 00:29

WhatsGoingOnEh

"if a court case is deemed to have been compromised, what happens? Will the bloke get off after all?"

He claims that he did "get off".

I don't know, either. Maybe nothing will happen in this case, but they will alter the guidelines for future cases?

I now have 563 signatories. 79 signed today alone.

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Mogleflop · 22/04/2018 07:12

I don't mean this badly at all, because i 100% agree with your goal, but I do wonder how you could prove those are "real" names to the recipients.

I mean, I could email you now from eight different email addresses with random fake ones. Or you could just write a thousand names and say they emailed you and you've now deleted the data?

KittTheCar · 22/04/2018 11:09

On that article most of the comments are complaining about misgendering and deadnaming the murderer in the article.

The preferred position would be that there was no clue that this person was trans I think.

Because women commit violent crime so infrequently, this will have a massive impact on the public perception around "women do it too" (when we do commit violent crimes they are already disproportionately reported because it is unusual) and fuel the MRA pushback around VAWG.

uglyswan · 22/04/2018 12:38

I've emailed them. Thank you for posting this.

MacaroonMama · 22/04/2018 17:23

JUst emailed with my name to add. Great letter. Thanks for doing this.

ArtemisRhodes · 23/04/2018 10:53

620 sigs now. Sending the letter today. Can anyone help by Tweeting, Facebooking, etc the link to the Press Release we just issued?
-----------

PRESS RELEASE ~ FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE 23 APRIL 2018

Over 600 people have signed a protest letter after a woman, physically beaten by a man, was forced by a judge to refer to him as a woman. Although legally and physically male, the defendant had arrived in court wearing makeup.

The letter asks the Judicial Conduct Investigations Office to investigate whether a judge has the right to interfere with witness testimony and to berate a victim by accusing her of showing "bad grace” towards her attacker, and refusing her compensation, because she referred to Mr Wolf with male pronouns.

This case has significant implications for future witnesses, particularly in cases of rape, where a victim's ordeal would be made unbearable if she were forced to refer to a male rapist as female.

Mr Wolf was convicted of common assault (by beating). It is not yet clear whether the incident has been recorded as a male or female crime in official records.

The victim of the assault, Maria MacLachan, published her account of the attack on her blog. It includes unedited video footage of the incident from three angles.www.skepticat.org/.../when-vicious-entitled-thugs.../

Press release issued by the feminist campaign group CATT.
Email [email protected]

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