Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men making victims use female pronouns in court ~ petition

77 replies

ArtemisRhodes · 18/04/2018 13:57

Arising from the outrage after Maria Mac was obliged to call Tanis "Tara" Wolf a woman in court, some of us have composed a letter to the Judicial Conduct Investigations Office.

So far 372 people (both sexes) have signed it, including Maria. If you wish to add your name, please email it to [email protected]

This is the current draft (we are still making tiny weaks).

Dear sir/madam,

We, the undersigned, are writing to express our concern at the conduct of the District Judge in the above matter.

This case was a charge of assault by beating. The defendant was a 26-year-old man, of approximately 6 feet tall, who violently attacked a small, slight, 60-year-old woman, the witness referred to below. In court, however, the defendant, through his legal representative, indicated that, although he does not have a Gender Recognition Certificate indicating that he has changed gender, he now self-identifies as a woman and wishes to be referred to by female pronouns (she and her).

When a witness takes the oath, they swear or affirm to tell the truth. It is therefore imperative that they make statements in their own words and to the extent of their beliefs. There is no negative judgement or inference in using the terms, man, woman, he, she. These are neutral, factual terms.

When the witness commenced her evidence, she naturally referred to the defendant as he, as he is a man, because it was clearly a man who attacked her, and remains to this day physically and legally male. She was quickly informed by counsel that the defendant wished to be referred to as a woman. She did her best to comply and referred to him as 'the defendant' twice. She was then asked to watch a video of the assault, during which she was asked further questions and she inadvertently slipped back into referring to the defendant as 'he'. At this point the judge stopped the witness’s evidence and reminded her to refer to the defendant as she and her.

This raises several issues:

  1. The witness had taken an oath to tell the truth. By requiring her to use female pronouns to describe an assault that she had experienced as a man beating her, the judge was forcing the witness to recount inaccurate testimony. The witness attempted to comply, as to ignore a direction from the judge could carry a charge of contempt of court, but this proved unsustainable as she recalled the beating.
  1. Trying to remember to use incorrect terminology may have affected the quality of the witness’s evidence. Indeed, the judge, in his judgement, mentioned negatively her failure to use female pronouns every single time. Despite her attempts to comply with the judge’s direction, he accused her of ‘behaving with bad grace’. Other witnesses also referred to the defendant as male, and yet were not admonished.
  1. It can never be acceptable for a judge to tell a victim of a violent, unprovoked assault that her accurate recall of the incident is anything other than good witness testimony. That this appears to have diminished the severity of the sentence is particularly demoralising as, later that day, the defendant boasted on his social media account that he had ‘won’ the case because the fine was low.
  1. The broader question in relation to such a judicial direction is that the quality of witness evidence will inevitably be affected. If a witness is having to recount an event truthfully, but then lie about the sex of the defendant, because he choses to ‘present’ on that day as a member of the opposite sex, this will create confusion for the witness, the court and the transcript.
  1. Forcing a witness to alter their witness testimony on the basis that the defendant later requested the court to recognise a new identity could lead to the unconscionable situation where a rape victim is directed to speak of her male rapist as if he were a woman, if he so demanded. Such a direction would be extremely abusive for the victim.

We are aware that S12 of the Equal Treatment Bench Book, provided to judges and magistrates gives guidance regarding how to address transgender defendants in court. We are not aware of any such requirement of witnesses, who are required to tell the truth, which in this case was that a man attacked a woman.

Giving evidence in court can be a challenging and intimidating process, without having to rethink the wording of one’s evidence to use words that distort the genuine recall of events. In directing the witness testimony in this way, to suit someone who exhibited abusive and violent tendencies towards the victim, this judge materially affected the quality of the witness’ evidence which is not in the interests of justice.

Further, we refer you to paragraphs 13, 14 and 15 of the Introduction to the Equal Treatment Bench Book, which places a requirement on judges to place themselves in the position of those giving evidence and accept that their culture, experiences and knowledge may affect their evidence, and this should be respected, considering the daunting and unnerving experience of appearing in court. In our view, the judge failed to apply this to the victim of the violence but rather directed her to comply with the wishes of the man who had attacked her.

We request that you investigate this matter to see whether justice has been compromised in this case by the judge's action in a) misdirecting the victim b) thereby confusing her and compromising the quality of the evidence she was able to give and c) in taking into account her occasional accidental failure to follow his instruction to use female pronouns and using it to mitigate the sentence awarded to the defendant.

We further ask that you provide further guidance to judges, and indeed magistrates, that they should not interfere with witnesses’ evidence, other than with regard to questions of law.

OP posts:
ArtemisRhodes · 18/04/2018 20:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ArtemisRhodes · 18/04/2018 20:25

HopScotchy

I am receiving emails from women wanting to sign but first begging me to promise that the list of names (nearly 400 now) will never be published.

What is more, they are asking me to delete their email to me once I have added their name ~ in case someone hacks into my email account.

And those contacting via Twitter are telling me to delete the entire private convo, for fear that Twitter staff could hack in and read the messages.

Jesus H Christ we are just women writing a perfectly respectable, reasonable, legally-based letter asking a judiciary body to look into a possible misdirection.

I know the TRA are watching these threads and I will say this: SHAME ON YOU! In the words of your hero, Tanis, "you are no better than fash". In fact ringing the venues threatening to set fire to them or start a riot etc actually meets the dictionary definition of "terrorism". You can't get your way by fair means, debate, discussion or reasonable persuasion, only by terrifying women. Disgusting.

OP posts:
ArtemisRhodes · 19/04/2018 10:46

A journalist is trying to pitch the story of this petition to a major national paper. She knows what they need to run with it: "someone famous".

Does anyone know ANYONE please, who can fit this bill and would add their name? This is quite urgent as she needs to submit it on Monday. Thank you!

OP posts:
OvaHere · 19/04/2018 10:51

Julia Hartley Brewer
Julie Bindel
Graham Linehan
Hadley Freeman

Not massively famous people but they are all blue ticked twitter folks who are openly gender critical.

ArtemisRhodes · 19/04/2018 10:54

ovahere

Julia Hartley Brewer ~ tweeted yesterday, no response
Julie Bindel ~ signed petition a few days ago - famous enough?
Graham Linehan ~ who? Will tweet!
Hadley Freeman ~ tweeted yesterday, no response

OP posts:
viques · 19/04/2018 10:54

I wonder if in the not too distant future we are going to have a situation where a victim of rape has to give evidence in court along the lines of "then she put her penis in my vagina".

OvaHere · 19/04/2018 10:57

Graham Linehan ~ who? Will tweet!

Writer and comedian, he has stuck his neck out on this issue on a few occasions. Being male he doesn't generally get quite as much flak.

Natsku · 19/04/2018 11:21

Have emailed.

Good idea to ask Graham Lineham, he's famous enough to make it a 'story'

Swimagainstthetide · 19/04/2018 11:31

This cannot be right, surely? Would the woman have grounds to appeal the sentencing on the basis of the judge's conduct?

Interestingly, I was at The Mermaid Conference and Events Centre in London yesterday, and they had done away with pronouns altogether for their toilets. They have a sign saying "Like Adam" and another saying "Like Eve".

BlackeyedSusan · 19/04/2018 11:33

kkep an account of how many ask to be deleted. (absolutely annonymously) how many have supported but are too scared. this may be useful for the journalist.

ErrolTheDragon · 19/04/2018 11:33

They have a sign saying "Like Adam" and another saying "Like Eve".

What, mythical?Confused

CuriousaboutSamphire · 19/04/2018 13:58

I'd be happy for you to quote my email, being one of those who has reservations! Adding some of those words might be quite powerful!

MrPan · 19/04/2018 14:23

Have sent my name to the catt email addy. I assume this is the action being requested here?

ArtemisRhodes · 19/04/2018 16:36

Does anyone know how I can get a private message to Justine Roberts? I would like her to be our "famous name" to head this petition.

Journos have asked for "someone notable" to back our action and I can't think of anyone better.

OP posts:
ArtemisRhodes · 19/04/2018 16:38

MrPan yes, all emails to that address are being seen and names added. We are now up to 411.

OP posts:
MrPan · 19/04/2018 17:27

Thank you.

ErrolTheDragon · 19/04/2018 17:54

Does anyone know how I can get a private message to Justine Roberts? I would like her to be our "famous name" to head this petition.

I'd guess if you report that post and ask MNHQ to ask her, the message will get to her.

Hyppolyta · 19/04/2018 18:02

Ive already added my name, but if anyone has seen the Ricky Gervais show Humans he talks about this with regards to Bruce/ Caitlyn Jenner.

Hes a big enough name to get it noticed, but I doubt tweeting him would get it noticed

LifelongVaginaOwner · 19/04/2018 18:49

Is it worth tweeting Robert Webb?

moofolk · 19/04/2018 19:26

Done.

cforte0 · 19/04/2018 22:00

I think it's ridiculous the wrong chromosomal gender identity was being forced upon the situation due to gender politics, but that is exactly what current feminism propagates, it's there in your document "There is no negative judgement or inference in using the terms, man, woman, he, she. These are neutral, factual terms."
They're not neutral, they're clearly differentiating between sexes, otherwise if they were neutral, you wouldn't have made this thread in the first place.
And I think a man allegedly beating a woman would elicit much more "negative judgement" than a woman allegedly beating a woman.

Backingvocals · 19/04/2018 22:03

I’m not sure you understand what neutral means

Hyppolyta · 20/04/2018 00:20

Im a bit confused by that post
There is no chromosomal gender identity. Chromosomes define ones sex.

In court one is bound to tell the truth, amd she was attacked by a man.

That isnt nasty, its the legal truth.

HopScotchy · 20/04/2018 00:31

@ArtemisRhodes I've sent my name btw. I don't throw info around online but I'm open and vocal irl I just don't like my social media to be linked because of all the crazy people.

ArtemisRhodes · 20/04/2018 13:06

We now have 451 signatures.

Will you help us to get 500 by Monday, when we are sending out the letter?

Copy/paste this text to tweet, Facebook and email this appeal. Thank you.

TARA WOLF CASE: PRONOUNS PETITION. Over 450 have signed, be nice to have 500!

cattuk.wordpress.com/judiciary-complaint-letter/

OP posts: