School axes head boy and head girl roles, two boys are voted into new gender neutral positions

[Kookabura]

Link to telegraph article here: www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2018/04/17/grammar-school-axes-head-boy-head-girl-roles-bid-establish-gender/

I notice the thread has been handily diverted to criticism of feminism in all its arts and parts, rather than discussing the nonsense of a head teacher 'improving' something that worked and was fair to both sexes. Now we're going down the fucking rabbit hole of 'yes but' and 'what about'.

Quite. I dont doubt that if this neutrality were introduced across all mixed schools the pattern would replicate again and again. I was reading an article today about children's books and cartoons never depicting leaders as girls. (At a push a girl.might get to lead a female group but never a mixed group). The conditioning starts young. It might have been a democratic vote but the young people voting were reflecting what they've been told all their lives about leadership.

Having worked in a lot of schools I also suspect two female chairs leading a team of 3 male students just wouldn't function because the boys would not take instruction from the girls.

Here's the report from the local paper and twitter

Juells

I didn't derail this thread into definitions of Feminism, I responded to a specific challenge on that point.

Coming back to the main point, I've asked a few times, I'll ask again, do you have any specific evidence that the two boys in this story aren't the best people for the job, or is that pure speculation?

If your position is that even a democratic vote shouldn't be allowed because it won't produce the 'right' answer, then you are one step away from being an oppressor yourself.

a female Headteacher of a mixed school (so the most powerful person there and most obvious role model) allows open competition for the student leadership and, in one particular year, 2 boys get the most senior roles. And this is a cause for opprobrium on this board?

You might also note that this is in a school, an environment where for many years, females have substantially outperformed males.

They applied and were interviewed for the role and were clearly thought of as the best candidates.

Maybe next year it will be 2 girls. Should men now not be allowed to compete equally for roles?

Qumwat,

Do you have any evidence for your assertion? I googled it and could not find any.

My bet is that in mixed schools where both sexes were allowed and encouraged to apply for head pupil, there would be more girls than boys winning out.

"Springtrolls

It wasn't just votes though.
They had to write why they wanted the role. Have their form tutors write references. Have their peers vote, and finally have an interview with a panel.
Hardly preparing for working life. The average job doesn't involve all of that."
Other than the peer vote that's a pretty good description of a job application

Our school is actually considering this (removing head boy/girl - making it open to either gender)... it's been proposed by the students, in recognition that gender identity can be fluid, and sometimes there may be candidates that don't identify with the boy/girl divide.

Board has been a bit resistant, particularly with the original scenario here of 2 boys doesn't sit well.

It's important that young people see men and women in leadership roles and working together. Having a head boy and a head girl is a good way of doing this. Having two girls or two boys is a wasted opportunity. In some ways two girls is more of a wasted opportunity than two girls- boys are used to seeing women in leadership roles in schools and are more likely to be disengaged from education. Seeing two head girls is likely to reinforce the view in disaffected boys that education is for girls.

BertrandRussell

Agreed.

There are benefits to both approaches:

Designated Head Boy/Girl means that everyone is represented and there is no 'unfairness'

Gender neutral selection process means that the two best people for the job get it, however if it happens to be two boys, people get 'excited'.

I wholeheartedly agree with your point that teenage boys are more likely to be disengaged from education, therefore anything that encourages them to engage in a positive way is going to be a good thing.

Years ago I was that teenage boy who thought education was for girls.

• (removing head boy/girl - making it open to either gender)... it's been proposed by the students, in recognition that gender identity can be fluid, and sometimes there may be candidates that don't identify with the boy/girl divide.

Either post should indeed be open to any 'gender' ; they could be renamed gender neutrally 'head students' or whatever - but have one post available for each of the two sexes.

Gender neutral selection process means that the two best people for the job get it, however if it happens to be two boys, people get 'excited

It would absolutely happen the other way round

When presidential elections take place, there is a trend which is well studied, in which the candidate who is perceived as more 'attractive' and looks or is perceived as younger almost always wins. Its something which repeats over and over again in western democracy. It also has an effect on the way in which we vote in this country, as people are influenced by the leader of a party, even though our system means we don't vote directly for a prime minister.

There are unconscious biases that are at play in any election, which are potentially relevant here.

This headteacher is also probably the sort of person who 'doesn't see colour'.

I think it's too early to make any judgements here, it needs to go on for a few years to see if there is a significant discrepancy between how many girls and boys are voted in.

I'm not sure how I feel about AWS in general, but at this level I don't see any wrong with having a head boy and girl and them bringing different things to the table.

JustOneMan

Really adding to the discussion.

🤨

OMG thats so cute

I would totes feed that!!

I would too! Think we can ask for a swap?

You ask angry

Make sure you say please