have I got this right? (girl guides again)

[Thanksforthatamazingpost]

I'm sorry, it's another girl guides thread, but I was eating my tuna sandwich and suddenly had this thought.

Some teenage boys become girls for the purposes of the Girl Guides' current guidance.

Contrary to what I had once naively assumed, many transwomen are still predominantly sexually attracted to women. I only realised this once a close trans friend explained that actually she isn't into men.

So these teenagers who have become girls (from the Guides' point of view) are sexually attracted to girls, and presumably have all the usual desires to explore that most teenagers have.

And then they share a tent.

And the girls are not allowed to say anything.

Please tell me this is wrong.

lancelottie I said there is already a small risk, this won't increase that risk because leaders already plan for the possibility of that happening and provide measures that members can access to protect themselves.

Yes, units can carry condoms at their discretion, they do have to inform parents if this is the case. If a young male joins the unit and then suddenly this policy is added, we'll know the leaders have done a risk assessment and decided that sexual activity at camp is now a very real possibility. Girls now miss out on camp because the GGs safe guarding policy on mixed sex accommodation is to carry a stash of condoms and hope for the best.

Keeping my train of thought going. If a female volunteer with girl guides identifies as a man or a boy, what are the safe guarding issues which mean they would have to be provided with separate sleeping and bathing facilities away from the women and girls?

None as she is still the same sex as the girls. The risk is not from someone being trans. It is from deciding mixed sex accommodation is ok because a male says he feels female.

Ok, on large scale camps jointly organised with the scouts, the guides DO NOT sleep in the same tents or use the same washrooms as males.
Each unit camps as an individual group, sleeping in tents with other members of that unit, under the supervision of their own leaders.
There are strict rules about not going off on your own or going in other people's tents. As a leader you make sure that everyone is tucked up in their own tent and settled before turning in. We normally arrange the tents "wagon train" style with the doors towards the center of the circle. Usually there is a security team patrolling the site at night too.
Now I am not so daft as to think this will stop a determined randy teenager, but they are kept separate and the parents do give their informed consent to the arrangements.

Under the new rules, I could have a male bodied teenager sleeping in the same tent as a female bodied teenager. Teenagers are teenagers, I don't care how they identify, they experiment and they are just as randy now as they were when I was their age.
AND I cannot tell the parents, so they cannot give informed consent.
And no, I would not be willing to hand out condoms to guides!

Fortunately I have not been put in this position yet

Every time I read one of these threads I keep thinking isn't this really simple. Willy = male. No willy = female.

Yep it really is that simple. Sex is not gender identity.

*lancelottie I said there is already a small risk, this won't increase that risk because leaders already plan for the possibility of that happening and provide measures that members can access to protect themselves.

The risk has been assessed*

Seriously? You are saying that the guides decided to allow cases of mixed sex showers and sleeping for minors with a deliberate policy of not telling parents or possibly even the girls involved. And the risk assessment was that it's ok because we'll give them condoms?

Ha ha ha ha ha.

I would love to see the paperwork for that one.

Why should teenagers now be more likely to be gender dysphoric than AGP...I think the opposite is true. Choosing your own gender is a trend and is being pushed on tumblr, reddit and youtube.

None as she is still the same sex as the girls. The risk is not from someone being trans. It is from deciding mixed sex accommodation is ok because a male says he feels female.

Yes exactly, but the only way for the GGs policy to make sense is if they say that biological sex is irrelevant and the safe guarding risk comes from your identity.

I would think teenagers would be more likely to be generally confused about gender given all the 'information' there is flying around these days, especially on the internet. No need for them to be dysphoric or AGP, just growing up and trying to sort out their views.

Someone (The internet) tells them that if they like e.g. pink sparkly unicorns they must be gay (uncool) or trans (cool) they might now be more likely to plump for trans, where as actually they happen to be a standard heterosexual male who happens to like pink sparkly unicorns. You now just have to hope they won't realise the truth whilst sharing a tent on a girl guides trip...

I find it very hard to believe that guide leaders provide condoms to youth members on camp .

And certainly not to under 16s - who can now share mixed sleeping quarters, apparently.

I'm also asking the question - if it's ok for some boys to sleep with the girls, does that now mean that no school trips/camps/youth club weekends away etc etc will have segregated sleeping quarters? Are all the kids just going to sleep (aged from 5 to 18) wherever they like?

If not, why not? And if so, will parents be happy with this?

There is no way no this earth that my parents would have let me go on a residential trip where the safeguarding policy rested on the free availability of condoms

Every time I read one of these threads I keep thinking isn't this really simple. Willy = male. No willy = female.

Not quite. It's actually: Willy = male. Vulva = female.

But yes, it really is that simple.

my own 15 year old asked me, after seeing a youtube video, whether a transwoman's chromosomes are still male or whether they become female.

It's obviously an area open to widespread doubt.

My 15 old only wondered because of the clash between the video and their biology lessons on reproduction

my own 15 year old asked me, after seeing a youtube video, whether a transwoman's chromosomes are still male or whether they become female

Such is the level of disinformation our young people are being bombarded with.

Girls used to say, "But they said I couldn't get pregnant if we did it standing up!" If we're not careful they'll be saying, "But they said I couldn't get pregnant if they were a lesbian!"

And if anyone actually believes issuing condoms to 11-15 year-olds without the knowledge of their parents is safeguarding, I think they need to do some serious self reflection, stat.

Girls used to say, "But they said I couldn't get pregnant if we did it standing up!" If we're not careful they'll be saying, "But they said I couldn't get pregnant if they were a lesbian!"

Can I just ask here..wtf is everyone here telling their kids in particularly their Dds.

My oldest is 11 and wabt to send her to school next year well equipped with actual facts however if I mention any of this and she's oblivious then I'm going to confuse and embarrass her. If I don't then I really dont want her thinking lesbians cant get pregnant when one has a lady dick.

How do we do this ?

Giles - my DD is a bit younger (8) but remarkably forthright on how babies are made and the need for a man and a woman to be involved. (It helps that we regularly see animals procreating, as well as un-neutered dogs and lactating bitches wandering around...) I'm hoping that she doesn't sway from what she has already learnt as she gets exposed to other stuff

DS (13) thinks that everything sex related is all disgusting and hates to talk about it. But he also knows about the real birds and the bees and happily corrected DD when she got confused about what a lesbian is.

So I guess it's about talking about facts when the opportunity presents itself

it doesn't matter what we tell our dc. We are old fogies, past our sell-by date. We're bigoted 20th century wrinklies. Unless it's spouted by a beautiful young thing on YouTube, preferably with a good backing track and cool graphics, it is meaningless.

Add that to the fact that we've brought up our dc to be compassionate to disadvantaged people and to stand up for the victims of bullying...

And if anyone actually believes issuing condoms to 11-15 year-olds without the knowledge of their parents is safeguarding, I think they need to do some serious self reflection, stat.

Abso-bloody-LUTELY.

That the muddying of language and lobby group interests means we even have to say this to the GUIDES for FFS is the most significant safeguarding issue of all.

That the muddying of language and lobby group interests means we even have to say this to the GUIDES for FFS is the most significant safeguarding issue of all.

Someone who thinks this Guide stuff is all fine and dandy will probably come along and waffle about Gillick competence/Fraser guidelines in a minute! I'd better clarify:

Yes, kids who are already sexually active and meet the Fraser guidelines vis a vis competence can get contraception sans parental approval. This is the law around contested medical care for minors.

Safeguarding is not organisations deliberately facilitating underage sex when in loco parentis. Safeguarding is not said organisations providing condoms so that the sex they have facilitated does not result in pregnancy.

Safeguarding is not organisations deliberately facilitating underage sex when in loco parentis. Safeguarding is not said organisations providing condoms so that the sex they have facilitated does not result in pregnancy.

I would have thought that, if what the judge said in the case where a child was placed in his father's care after his mother fell heavily into affirmation is any guide, the most appropriate place for a male child that is non gender conforming would be the scouts, where there is the opportunity to work with both boys and girls and the child does not close off the option of socialising as a boy.

Encouraging the GGs to change their policy is about society affirming the identity of transgender male to female persons, and is therefore the political act that the GGs were scornful of in their statement this morning to the Julia Hartley-Brewer programme.

Safeguarding is not organisations deliberately facilitating underage sex when in loco parentis. Safeguarding is not said organisations providing condoms so that the sex they have facilitated does not result in pregnancy.

Yes this this this!^

I hope Lang doesn't mind me posting it a 3rd time, as I think it is v important for those 'hard of understanding' to read it again and again until they finally get it.

I am telling my dd that just because she likes things that are "non girly" does not mean that she is not a girl. I have told her that she can like all sorts of different things like reading and science and not wearing pink or makeup and still be a girl. I have warned her that some people might tell her that she is not a girl because she like science.

I will add that all penisis have potential to cause pregnancy, and that even if someone tells her it is a female penis, it can still cause infection or pregnancy.

that even if someone tells her it is a female penis, it can still cause infection or pregnancy.

Absolutely!

It is gobsmacking that the GG can produce this

www.girlguiding.org.uk/globalassets/docs-and-resources/research-and-campaigns/sexual-harassment-in-schools-inquiry---girlguiding-response-may2016.pdf

and at the same time spout that rubbish about trans.

The 'advice' in dealing with trans members just completely overlooks the feelings and perspectives of women.

The guides are all for teaching boundaries, appropriate relationships etc. (see the link above) and then they put girls in a situation where it is very difficult for them to say 'no' to people with penises in their spaces.

It's bonkers.

The guides are all for teaching boundaries, appropriate relationships etc. (see the link above) and then they put girls in a situation where it is very difficult for them to say 'no' to people with penises in their spaces.

The issue goes way beyond guides, too.

This same advice that has led to this type of ridiculous and inappropriate guidance has been and is being given out to organisations across Britain.