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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Spartacus believes in biology.

457 replies

HairyBallTheorem · 16/04/2018 21:03

Transwomen are biologically male. They are born biologically male and they remain biologically male.

I accept that it must be very hard to suffer from gender dysphoria. I wish transwomen well. I support their right not to be discriminated against in housing, employment and in life in general.

But biology matters. It is biology which means that women in Ireland and across South America and in many other parts of the world are the ones who get pregnant and are then forced to give birth against their will by political systems that deny them the right to abortion. It is biology which enables people in cultures which practice FGM to recognise which babies are female and thus decide which ones' genitals need slicing off with rusty razor blades. It is biology which dictates which foetuses are aborted simply for being female, which infants are allowed to die simply for being female. It is biology which means we are, on average, smaller and less physically strong than men and thus at higher risk of domestic violence up to and including murder (2 a week in this country, into the hundreds in Russia which has recently legalised domestic violence).

I am not prepared to lie about biology. Facts matter. The intersection of facts and political beliefs matters.

This is a hill on which I'm prepared to be banned from Mumsnet.

OP posts:
Zone2mum · 17/04/2018 07:12

I am Spartacus too

20pencepiece · 17/04/2018 07:13

I am Spartacus. XX and XY chromosomes cannot be changed. Stop the gaslighting.

SlowlyShrinking · 17/04/2018 07:22

Biology is real. You can’t change sex even if you really really want to. I don’t think it’s kind to go along with someone’s delusions, because in the real world everyone can see that a man is a man, and many people aren’t scared to say so. I am also concerned that, for example, agreeing that a trans identified male can have period pain could lead to him delaying seeking medical help to find out the actual cause of his pain.
Men can’t become women and women can’t become men.

merrymouse · 17/04/2018 07:27

I am Spartacus. We need to be able to talk about sex.

UrsulaPandress · 17/04/2018 07:27

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Velvetbee · 17/04/2018 07:34

I am Spartacus too.

2cats2many · 17/04/2018 07:34

Another Spartacus here. I fear for my daughter's future if she is increasingly forced to llive by a narrow socially gendered view of what a woman is. As if life wasn't fucking hard enough.

Sex, not gender. 💪

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 17/04/2018 07:52

And me.

If anyone's here because they are looking for the hateful bigotry India Willoughby suggested was rife on the site, let me say a few things.

I think most transwomen, like most people, are perfectly decent people, and should be allowed to go about their lives without threat of violence or unpleasantness. In case you hadn't noticed, it's not radical feminists who attack and murder transwomen. That would be men.

When I meet a transperson, I don't hate them or feel phobic toward them - but I do think they've signed up to a sexist world view that I can't subscribe to, just like I feel like someone who's a Tory or a Christian subscribes to a set of beliefs about the world that I don't support or agree with.

Gender is no more real than racial stereotypes - gendered behaviour is something that some people perform, indeed most of us, to an extent, but it isn't innate and it isn't inevitable. I think everyone should wear what they like, be named as they please, put whatever make up they like... but I don't believe 'woman' is something intrinsic to you. I'm not a 'cis woman', because I don't subscribe to or accept sexist stereotypes any more than a transman does. But I do know that I'm a woman - I don't think I can change into being a man, and I certainly don't think that would be an answer to rejecting sexist stereotypes.

I feel like a woman when I'm worried my period's going to leak onto the back of nmy skirt in a meeting. Biology. And then I feel like a woman in a different way when I go to the loo and there's a massive queue whilst the men wander in and out of the gents' really quickly - then, I feel like a woman because of the way society treats me.

I don't 'feel like a woman' when I'm wearing make-up, making particular consumer choices, behaving in particular ways. Because that's not me being a woman, that's me being me. Everyone should be able to do that.

And no, I don't think someone who's infertile, or has had a hysterectomy, is less of a woman. The reason people have hysterectomies is... because they're women! That too is an exclusively female experience.

The problem with telling little girls that boys can now come into their toilets or join the guides, for me, isn't that they're at risk of sexual abuse (I mean, statistically they are, but that's not my issue). The issue is that we're then telling girls 'you're not a girl because of your body: you're a girl because of how you choose to behave. And x y and z are all Girl Behaviours - so if this other kid is doing them, he's a girl. And if you're really a girl, you should be doing them too'.

Trans ideology is, for me, sexist, out-dated, regressive, and nonsensical. There's no 'female soul' or 'male soul' - there are bodies, and there is behaviour. There's no gender fairy who sometimes gets it wrong. There are bodies, and we need to choose where we go from there.

In a world of Girls Toys and Boys Toys, where right from day one certain expectations of you are made based on your body, it's not surprising that some people reject those expectations and sometimes that rejection then makes the step of thinking they'd rather enact the expectations of the other kind of body. If we could just try, for a few decades, to say 'having a female body means that your body will likely grow in this way' and nothing else - not, having a female body means you're kind, caring, bossy, bitchy, submissive, make-up loving... then I have to wonder whether fewer people would feel they were 'in the wrong body', if bodies meant only what they do mean.

SOME PEOPLE ARE RADICAL FEMINISTS: GET OVER IT.

SporadicSpartacus · 17/04/2018 07:57

I don’t think I am even a radical feminist, but telling the truth is extremely important to me.

Sex differences in humans exist and are quite often relevant to the way humans relate to each other. If that makes me one of the Spartaci, okay.

At this rate we’ve got a whole mountain range of hills going on.

CATTamonstthepigeons · 17/04/2018 08:07

I’m a veterinary surgeon. I studied genetics, anatomy and physiology at university. No mammal can change sex. Men cannot become women, however much they might wish to do so.

I am Spartacus.

JoyTheUnicorn · 17/04/2018 08:13

I am Spartacus too.
I don't want anyone to be erased, or killed, or any other hyperbolic statements fling at radfems, I want anyone to feel comfortable with who they are, without risk from others.
Sex change is impossible though. You can't identify yourself out of sex specific illnesses (prostate cancer or cervical cancer for example). Biology trumps gender every time.
I would like women to be given the courtesy of being listened to and to be taken seriously, instead of immediately being labelled bigot for saying that sex matters.

Noqonterfy · 17/04/2018 08:16

I am Spartacus too.

LangCleg · 17/04/2018 08:17

Still Spartacus this morning.

GenderApostate · 17/04/2018 08:20

I am Spartacus.
Biology matters.
The TRUTH matters.
Humans cannot change Sex and Gender is an ideology, we cannot be forced to believe an ideology.

PetraDelphiki · 17/04/2018 08:28

I am Spartacus. Biology is real.

Stilettosandan0venglove · 17/04/2018 08:31

I am also Spartacus, I know that humans can't change sex.

beasternunny · 17/04/2018 08:33

I am Spartacus.

averylongtimeasSpartacus · 17/04/2018 08:38

I am Spartacus.
Biology is real, it is impossible to change sex and xy can never become xx.

I will use preferred pronouns and names where I can, I don't hate trans people and certainly think they should have the same rights as everyone else to live their lives free from persecution and discrimination.
That's the same rights, not rights taken from women.

Hypermice · 17/04/2018 08:40

I believe that everyone has a right to live safely, with no threat of violence or discrimination for how they look or dress or act (within the law.) I believe gender stereotypes are narrowing and that this is a bad thing.

I also believe (no I don’t, I KNOW because belief is faith and knowledge is fact based) that transwomen are biological men. They should have rights to safety, dignity, medical care etc and should not be discriminated against.
This should NOT be done at the expense of women and girls. Not our rights, not our safe spaces. The ability to call each sex by it’s biological name and to use language honestly is how we talk about and frame our experiences.

I will not accept, cannot accept that transwomen are women. This is not a matter of belief. Belief is for religion and faith based opinions. There is an objective reality and we live in it.

Nobody is served by dishonest language, by inability to name an item, or by labelling transwomen as women.

Women are disadvantaged because of their sex and their biology. I believe that. I cannot Unbelieve it any more than I can unbelieve any physically observable, quantifiable phenomenon. It is a matter of fact, not belief, faith or opinion.

Spartacus · 17/04/2018 08:53

I am Spartacus.

I will not pretend biological males are women.

I will not pretend biological females are males.

It is gaslighting.

The law shouldn't be based on feelings.

Women need the law to be grounded in reality, however much trans activists agitate and hurl abuse and threats.

This matters. If we lose the right to describe our lives, to name our oppression, we lose everything.

RogerAllamsFangirl · 17/04/2018 09:01

I am Spartacus.

I certainly don't hate trans people and I find any suggestion to the contrary deeply offensive.

I support anyone's right to express themselves as they please. I particularly welcome men pushing the boundaries of society's current, rather narrow, view of what it is to be a man.

Human beings are dimorphic and cannot change sex. I will use someone's preferred pronouns as a matter of courtesy but reserve the right to name biological sex (and use the pronouns of that sex) where it is relevant to a point being discussed (eg Male socialisation).

MrsFantastic · 17/04/2018 09:02

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace - well said.

Cascade220 · 17/04/2018 09:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

drspouse · 17/04/2018 09:35

I am starting a new hill in case there isn't room.
I am Spartacus.

TrumpsToddlerTantrums · 17/04/2018 09:39

I am Spartacus.

Respect is earned not demanded.

Biology matters. Sex matters.