THIS is why i don't support womens rights

[Wilhamenawonka]

Deliberately goady thread title there but it's true and please be gentle because I'm in tears writing this.

I'm weak. So fucking weak.
It's not that I don't believe in everything that you talk about here. I'm a true convert and my contribution Is to try and bring my kids up to value themselves and each other and to see the inequalities and barriersthat are there.

But as for anything else i just can't. Simply writing this is causing me panic.

I was brought up by the most misogynistic man you can imagine. Jokes about domestic abuse, women/men are just like that, aggressive, you name it.
You didn't argue. It simply wasn't worth it.

I had value because i earned well. Now i don't and am a single mum and the disappointment is openly strong.

He's sick of feminists complaining and never doing anything.
He thinks that equality of sexes at work is wrong because it should just be the right person for the job.
His mother held the purse strings so financial abuse isn't really a thing.
Women abuse men too dontcha know. His mates were taken for everything in the divorce.
And when he can't ignore something any longer his answer is that he lives in a bubble and isn't part of the world any more, in other words he doesn't want to talk about it.
And on and on and on and on.
Relentlessly and forever.

After i told him about some horrendous stuff my friends had gone through he kept on making jokes about domestic abuse
(one friend had her head kicked in).

But last week, when i had told him that every woman i know has been assaulted, his answer was to say 'are you accusing me of abusing your mother?' (Said in his slow burning angry voice)
THAT was his response. All about him. All about him feeling atracked. Changing the narrative. Avoiding. Being aggressive.

I ended up screaming that every woman i know includes his own fucking daughter (me). And he finally listened. But for me it was too late.

But it's too hard. I've spent my whole life trying not to draw his disapproval because it's scary as fuck. I grew up with it. It's in my dna.

And I'm not the only one. You guys are so brave but this is a massive barrier feminism has too get through. Its not just internalized misogyny you have to fight but womens fear of drawing the wrath of the men they know.
What you're doing is SO important.

I'm too scared to even post a feminist type thing on fb on case he sees it. It's so deeply ingrained and i don't know if I'll every be free of the fear.

I won't be the only one.
And like i said THAT'S why l don't (openly) support you.
I'm sorry.

Everyone can only do their best. You sound very demoralised and sad. Your dad sounds awful too. The fact that you've survived your upbringing shows how strong you are.

Hang out with us here and keep joining in with us. Lots of us have felt similar to you or been in abusive relationships. It can be empowering just to get together with other women and chat.

You don't need to make any grand gestures or put yourself at risk in any way. Sometimes it's about baby steps. Are you getting all the help you can so you can be independent from your dad?

You aren't weak. You know your own mind. Despite everything you have been 'taught' you have the strength of mind to have your own opinions. That's not weak. Many women make rational decisions about 'how' they will be active. Anonymity in activism is a valid choice. You can be effective without standing on a soapbox in your parents living room. You do support women's rights you are just trying to work out how to do it without risking too much. That's perfectly OK.

I've been standing up to him and arguing the toss for years and i know I'm not really weak as a person but the point is still the same.

I guess it's just that I'm really seeing so clearly the structures and hatred and also examining my own responses to them.

Look. Like everyone I'll have internalized misogyny. How could i not in this society.
But that's just one part of it.

Even when it's obvious, there's still a fear in place about challenging it. It's this...
'I understand why standing up for women's rights in general is hard in your situation, because it is like imagining standing up to thousands of men like the angry one you've grown up with. '

For me it was a parent. For others it could be a partner, sibling who knows.

But that fear of mens disapproval is something that i can see and feel but doesn't seem to get talked about.
It's like the fear of men is so ingrained somehow that we tiptoe about even when there's no fear of violence

Brave post OP.

You know what? You don't have to speak up. Not now, not yet, not till you're ready, not till you want to.

You sound crushed, by a nasty man, and empty of energy right now. So don't think of anything other than finding your own network of support, for now.

Other women will speak up for you. And it's OK.
One day you'll have the resources and resilience to do it too. For today, this need not be your burden.

The way you get past the fear is by reaching out to other women, and leaning on them when you need to. You may never be able to talk to your dad about this stuff, he may be a lost cause, and if so that's his fault, not yours.

The first step is the hardest one! If there isn't anyone irl who you can talk to then talk to us.

I think you're making a really important point OP. It's true. Most of us do have to struggle and overcome our socialisation in order to be this gobby. And the moment when you really see it properly for the first time can be very shocking

You've already taken the first, hardest step saying all this although you were shaking with fear. Keep breaking the rules and it gets easier and easier. I really think you need to get away from your dad though.

Barracker I'm not really crushed just well pissed off really. And yes scared inside.
I'm talking about social conditioning and how deeply ingrained it is.
The fear of disapproval is so strong in so many people, and that's something that holds people back.
The gender debate is an obvious example but i really think it goes much much deeper than that and have used my story as an example.

Hey OP. I get that this stuff is really scary. Standing up for yourself when you’ve been taught to always put your abuser first is hard. Super hard. You’ve taken a big step in posting at all.

You know what you can do? You can stand up for women’s rights behind closed doors. It’s a great start for you and a great example to your children. And that’s enough, you know. Enough.

My story about standing up for women’s rights is a bit of a mistake. I’m one of the ManFriday swimmers. Amy started her thread and I joined in, finding a local swim to me, and she and the press turned up and the rest will be history. It’s entirely accidental but I’ve now been in the papers and on the radio talking about this stuff. Just a few weeks before the swim I was at a WPUK meeting where I was too intimidated to put my hand up.

My point is JFDI. Once you’ve done it you’ll be amazed at how easy it is. Be kind to yourself as you get there.

Well done OP! You posted and you didn't have to, that was a great first step. I think there is an AA Milne poem that states 'You're braver than you think'

Now that you've posted, you will find many supportive posters here and this can be your place to turn to when things are rough and it will keep you strong.

All the best to you! more

If you have stood up to your father, and argued the toss many times, where does the fear come from?

It is a genuine question. Because I can easily hold my own with xH, but I still get triggered when I see him. Specifically him, not men in general. I don’t believe all men are controlling bullies, or just waiting to be violent. I do believe that women can be judged by society for not conforming, but that is a different thing.

Tallulah.
I see it
I SEE IT
I SEE IT SO CLEARLY!

But if i can see it and be scared to even post #metoo because of ingrained fear of disapproval then i won't be the only one.

Not sure what i wanted from this thread really other than an fu to my dad (obviously) but also to vocalise some thoughts I've been having recently.

Fear Is a huge motivator/demotivator and although there's a lot of talk on this board about internalized misogyny, and of apathy (eg the petition to discuss women's rights only hit 10000 today), and fear of violence and lots of other things, I've not come across discussion about the fear of disapproval which to me can motivate a person's whole life.

People do need the approval of others generally but with the system working so beautifully to keep women in their place i don't know what the answer or solution is.

Katara the fear is there but i know exactly how far i can go is the answer.

Somehow i have to bring my girls up to not be afraid of being themselves in a society which doesn't like girls being themselves while I've been socialized to not be myself.
It's a huge trap.

Terry Pratchett wrote that with certain people the whips were in their own heads so weren't needed.
It feels a bit like that's what's happened with me and women like me.

You are talking about socialisation and patriarchal power structures. We see them clearly there's just no quick fix. So the responses you are recieving are about finding a way for you.

For a long time, I felt xH’s disapproval even though he was not there.

If you imagine a dark, black thundercloud, that was how I saw and feared his wrath.

But then imagine that thundercloud is only one speck in a vast sky. If you shrink the thundercloud and look at the rest of the sky, there is so much space.

Living in the thunder cloud distorts your vision. The best way to bring your DD up to be themselves is to find the courage to be yourself.

I get what you are saying OP. I think it could be a self esteem issue and perhaps seeking help for that would help.I say that as someone who is in that place myself. I grew up with a controlling father. I have always been a deep thinker strong opinions but no-one would know that on first meeting me. Growing up fearful of my father's reactions meant I learnt to behave in ways that would not upset anyone and my foremost need is to be liked. I can feel like a fraud with regards feminism as I'll happily rant to my lovely DH or close friends who I know share my views but I won't put my opinions in front of acquaintances or strangers.

It's a double whammy to have your esteem crushed by a toxic parent AND to be socialised female. Don't be hard on yourself.

I don't know about everyone else but after I properly saw it first I needed a good long period (weeks, maybe months) kind of like this

😯😮😧😮😨😱😠😡😡😡😡

before I felt like I even knew what to begin to think about it. Take your time

Sometimes, saying it out loud and to other people is the bravest thing you could possibly do, OP. I think you're brave.

As others have said, keep reaching out to us. We're always here, fighting our own socialisation by being gobby!

"The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off."

It's been a while since Gloria Steinem said that, but it's still true.

OP,

I just want to hug you and say I get it - I "feel" you. It's courageous of you to be so honest and yes the title is a bit goady as I expected a troll - so imagine my surprise when I related so much to your post.

I tried to raise this very topic elsewhere recently and got short shrift I felt. Unless has walked the same journey people don't get it. I hate the term internal misogyny as it so victim blames. Mine was laid down at 6 months old by my father's cruelty - that's why guys like him and yours, by the sound of it, shouldn't be allowed anywhere nearly children on their own - they do more harm than good - but I digress.

I imagine what you're shaking from is terror (mine is). I can't control that - I have learnt to live with it. But most of the time it's like dragging a 10 ton weight round - just to front up to these boards takes an enormous amount of effort sometimes - it's also why I rarely confront trolls head-on - because I don't need the extra conflict - I carry it with me all the fucking time inside me. And yes the felt sense of all that hatred towards women. It's like a tsunami.

Sound like you are in family violence dynamics - that really sucks and it's draining and undermining. You know best what you need to do for your safety and that of your children.

So realising I want to claim my place as a woman, but to do so means facing what seems like a David v Goliath battle within myself first, can be overwhelming, in and of itself, often - as I have been conditioned to defer, to freeze when threatened, to be seen and not heard, to be quiet, to cower - never mind the actual external systems of control in place many women have to deal with, for example, where welfare systems have been weaponised against them.

If my experience resonates with you I recommend three things - first do some self care - do something kind for you - a bath, a cuppa, some smelly oils, music whatever feels nice - how would you treat someone else in shock - well do it for you. Secondly, be very gentle with yourself - just getting to where you have got to means you have already climbed a huge mountain - you are seeing the view and it's not what you expected or like. It 's like when I reach the top of the mountain after a very hard slog, only to find it's a false summit. Thirdly, reach out to the DV services and see what they have in terms of groups etc (there's a coercive control charity I can look up the links for - their stuff might help). Also I have found Al Anon helpful even though there was no active addiction in my family, the controlling behaviours are the same. It's free or low cost (gold coin) and there are free phone meetings. I substitute the word abuser or bully or narcissist or psychopath instead of alcoholic - whatever works. Some of the wisdom I hear from other Al-Anon women helped me not take on so much stuff and repair my boundaries. That gives me energy and newfound hope. I take from it what I like and leave the rest - as I don't like all of their approach but I value some the advice from other women.

Just the fact you recognise where you are means you have done 80% of the work - you are at the cusp - you are aware of the control and can see it in your face at every move - you have broken the cycle. Well done. And yes we don't talk about it enough because this is the stuff that stops women - roots them where they are - at the feet of the men. We need to help them more to get out of that place….

Happy to share more if it helps. If not never mind - hugs are free. Be very gentle with yourself xx

THIS highlights so very clearly why its important that as many women as are able are vocal and demonstrative about our rights and our spaces. It pisses me right off to read sneery dismissive pieces about white middle class feminists having no clue about other women. If white MC women are prepared to make a noise about the issues that affect women, then it will help ALL women in the long run. It doesnt matter what race or class you are, we're all WOMEN and this affects everyone.

OP youve made me even more determined to fight this cause. I'm lucky to not have to live with abuse but that doesn't mean I think it doesnt happen. My efforts are on your behalf, so dont worry about not being public yet ❤️

Big hugs and

The irony there being that those people are suggesting that white middle class men know more about feminism than white middle class women do. Hmm, I'm spotting some issues with this logic.

I get it. I had to live with someone like that. But now I don’t and here I am. Look at the magnificent step you made by making your post. That’s brave. Bravery is being scared and doing it anyway and that’s what you did.

So premenstrual tears aside and a good nights sleep later...

It's a double whammy to have your esteem crushed by a toxic parent AND to be socialised female.

So much this!
For me the fear isn't about violence at all.

It's what stopped me asking for a pay rise when i was earning less
And calling out my friends who are currently being really dicks
And even as small as apologising if someone stands on my foot.

It keeps me firmly in my place. But it's not just my dad who put me there. My mum also taught me that approval is everything.

I think it's part of the girls should be nice thing. But I'm only just seeing how compete and pervasive that is and how all encompassing

Glad that you slept well.
The important thing about change is to want to change. That's the first step. You've done that.
There's lots of inspirational points and advice from posters on this thread.

Change is small steps. Good luck with your first steps.

I'm so sorry op.

No where near what you've experienced but when truth started dawning I went through a process of fear and anger very like the emoticons Tallulah posted.

Give yourself time. Learn. Read. Connect with others. When you feel stronger, perhaps changes can be made.

I think you're very right; many women can't stick their head above the parapet.