Slide show on "How to Deal with TERFs"

[OlennasWimple]

Vimeo file embedded in this Twitter post: twitter.com/Gay4Plants/status/984358165075628032

Warning: do not watch if you are prone to high blood pressure, as it will send it rocketing

I'm not sure what's the worst bit of it TBH: the likening of TERFs to fascists, the fact that this was used for training at the NUS conference, the appalling spelling and grammar, or the downright lies it contains.

Another thread from supposedly a former employee at MNHQ

https://mobile.twitter.com/emma_healey/status/985527876878589952

Wow why does she spell feminist with 'man' in it?

I hope the Guardian picks up on her spray. It would be a good way to spread a gender critical perspective on transing children.

Silly, daft wee girls. They will cringe at their behaviour one day when they’ve grown up and are living in the real world.

This was written just for them.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3108929-a-letter-to-the-woman-who-called-me-a-terf

"I worked at Mumsnet and women my mum's age and older refused to meekly defer to me and change both their policies and their office culture as a result of my informing them of how bigoted and behind the times they were. Some of them even pointed out that the generational difference might have something to do with the difference in how we viewed certain issues. This is an outrage! So now I've made it my goal to punish them for their failure to obey me."

Not sure if "Femmanist" is an attempt to include the term "femme" in the username that went wrong, a determination not to exclude men from the movement one is attempting to take over, or just a sign that we need to place more importance on teaching kids to spell while they're in primary school.

Male inclusive femanists subscribe to the 3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

What's the acronym for Women Exclusive Radical Transperson?

Yes I am new. Hello!

For me the problem with the whole debate is when it starts from the premise that there is no way that a trans woman can be a woman even though they have experiences common to women, they are read very often as female, and many women's groups (the NUS, the Labour party, etc. read them as women),

To dismiss trans people as 'MRAs' is so vile. If you want to debate the GRA, or argue about specific points in the presentation we can do that but a debate doesn't start with denying the person you are debating personhood, and screenshotting their Twitter and sighing over who is present in the debate doesn't solve anything either.

Morning Virginia. Do you believe that humans are sexually dimorphic? Just so we have a starting point for our debate.

If you want to debate the GRA, or argue about specific points in the presentation we can do

I wasn't aware that your permission was required? Should have thought of that years ago before we started debating those things, I guess.

Hello VirginiaComet,

If possible, could you please explain why a transwoman is not a man, considering that they have a lot of shared experiences common to men? This is a genuine question by the way. What is the difference between a man and a transwoman?

Not sure if "Femmanist" is an attempt to include the term "femme" in the username that went wrong, a determination not to exclude men from the movement one is attempting to take over, or just a sign that we need to place more importance on teaching kids to spell while they're in primary school.

I wondered the same when I saw that "man" in the name!

many women's groups (the NUS, the Labour party, etc. read them as women

They don't "read them as women" though. Because if they actually did they would treat them differently and not hang on their every word while throwing other women and girls under the bus.

starts from the premise that there is no way that a trans woman can be a woman even though they have experiences common to women, they are read very often as female, and many women's groups (the NUS, the Labour party, etc. read them as women)

Yes, because a) they had or have a penis and b) they have benefitted from a life of male conditioning and supremacy within a patriarchal society. You can tell this by the way so many identify as women yet still tell women how to argue, think and what women 'really' feel.
So they are men, despite the feelz.

they are read very often as female

So your definition of woman would be someone who passes as one?
And who has experiences common to women

What might these experiences that define womanhood be?

Which experiences, exactly. Experiences common to women that I've discussed with other women include - menstruation, sexist expectations placed on us growing up (the ones that say girls are bad at maths, not the ones that say boys are good at sports), worries about unwanted pregnancy and the associated contraceptive options, pregnancy, childbirth, motherhood.

Were you thinking of clothes and wanting to look attractive in them? I've discussed that with lots of men.

I'd be very keen to hear what I have in common with a trans woman. Given that the only womanly thing I do is breastfeed.

Oh, even though I personally have never had one I also recently discussed miscarriage with a family member who had one. Not having had one myself I wasn't in a position to give experience based advice, but since it's something that could happen to me there's a level of empathy there and the ability to discuss how one copes based on that.

Do you think a transwoman could and should have a conversation like that with women, and that if they did so it would be the same as my having that conversation with my family member? If not why not?

They don't "read them as women" though. Because if they actually did they would treat them differently and not hang on their every word while throwing other women and girls under the bus

Yep this is true.

Watching this thread with interest. I've yet to see a comprehensive and convincing answer from a TRA on what a woman is.

Hey AncientLights, not having spent time on mumsnet doesn't make virginia's point any less correct? Just because lots of you believe trans women aren't women doesn't actually make it true, it just makes you all wrong together. The same goes for spelling and grammar - a badly written truth is worth far more than an eloquent falsehood after all. The idea that intelligence is the same as perfect spelling is also nonsense - lots of highly intelligent people struggle with spelling, and many have conditions like dyslexia which make it more difficult.

I don't think you really appreciate what it's like to live as a trans woman - the threats of street harassment, the rejection, the inability to even use the bathroom or have someone you call you by your name? The idea that it's simple or easy to ID as a woman to claim positive discrimination is just a lie, and a mean and nasty one at that because it ignores how much these women struggle to be recognised as themselves. The idea that trans women are opportunists trying to take opportunities from cis women is also totally naive in relation to the workings of these organisations, which you'd know if you ever actually worked with trans inclusive groups. It's quite clear you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to how women join these panels etc.

@transwomenarewomentoo - Virginia not having spent much time here does not make her point incorrect, it'd be incorrect however long she'd spent here IMO. She read like an innocent who had wandered unknowingly into alien territory - not sure whether that's a deliberate tactic or not. As is your use of the C word - 'cis' is not generally welcome here either. You can repeat your little mantra 'transwomen are women' as much as you like for the rest of your lives if you wish but it will not be true. Ever. Transwomen are just that, transwomen. You are quite right, I have no idea what it's like to live as a trans woman because I am not one, nor do I have any idea what it's like to live as a man or, indeed, what it's like to live as my neighbour because I'm not my neighbour. I'm me. But are you seriously suggesting that, as a woman, I have no understanding of street harassment & threats? You are joking, surely? I'd guess all women do, I have lived with it since I was a child. The only times I've not been able to use public toilets has been because there have been too few for the women waiting to use them. And that will get worse because those queues will be longer with all the men who have ID'd as women in there and also if I go in and see a beardy bloke, I will have to walk out again. Calling by my name? It's often forgotten by people as it's rather bland, plus I've been called Mrs Husband's name, sometimes just his first name, more often both his names or his initial plus surname. Then after a name change post divorce, I still got called by his name - dead naming I believe you call it.

We are not talking about men who have transitioned by surgery/hormones. We are talking about men being able to self ID as women, retaining their genitalia & consequent hormones, and then taking up women's places on sports teams, claiming prizes, bursaries whatever meant for women, joining organisations like Girl Guides, sitting on women's committees imagining they are representing women, being able to lay claim to our private spaces in public toilets (see above), changing rooms, shelters.

I believe this to be morally and ethically wrong. And I will not tire of saying so nor be bullied into not saying it.

Also a debate doesn't start with denying the person you are debating personhood

I quite agree. And no-one is doing this. What they are doing is questioning that persons claim to womanhood.

Thanks for coming back, too. And I’m thankful to see no-one telling anyone to get fucked, no venting of spleens, and no shouting

If you want to debate the GRA, or argue about specific points in the presentation we can do that but a debate doesn't start with denying the person you are debating personhood

Thank you for the kind permission, although your permission is not actually required for women to speak among themselves without outside supervision.

Nobody is debating anybody's personhood, unless you are under the impression women here think trans people are somehow not human beings? If so, your impression is faulty.

I'm not on this thread to debate the GRA. I'm on this thread to comment on the misogyny and anti-woman slurs contained in a spreadsheet presentation somebody produced. I find the presentation deeply offensive to my identity as a woman and I also find it interesting that my identity counts for nothing in the minds of those supporting it, since the argument seems to be that an individual personal identity is the most important thing on Earth.

Respect is a two-way street and surely, according to this individualist ideology's own tenets, my identity is as important as anyone else's? Or is that not the case? Are some identities more sacrosanct than others?

For me the problem with the whole debate is when it starts from the premise that there is no way that a trans woman can be a woman even though they have experiences common to women, they are read very often as female, and many women's groups (the NUS, the Labour party, etc. read them as women),

VirginiaComet - hello and I am new too, or fairly. I have written a lengthy reply elsewhere so won't repeat those points but I do wonder what experience women & transwomen share? For clarity's sake, I will assume we are talking about over 18's - I appreciate that some children/teens etc struggle with their identity but they are legally their birth sex till 18 I believe, then they can do whatever. So they have male socialisation for 18 years, formative years, years that lay the foundation for the rest of life. A different socialisation from girls even if some of us do try to even it out as much as we can, society will still stuff that up. They won't have shared the discomforts about female bodily changes. They certainly won't have experienced the absolute dread of periods starting at inopportune times. Before my periods started, I spent about a year discretely looking back at every chair I got up from, dreading seeing a tell-tale red stain on it. Do we have that in common? What about the dread of getting pregnant? No. Period pains? No. None of it, in fact.

Virginia, nobody reads them as women. Honestly. We always know. For years, with the older style of transwomen who had the ops and all those things, we gave them the status of 'honorary' women. There weren't very many, it wasn't a problem. But that will change, has changed even now. Trans people cover a whole range and some are MRAs, no question. Not all. Probably not even most. But some are. And they can be very unpleasant indeed. Nobody, but nobody, here is ever denying their humanity or personhood. If I were religious, I'd say 'we're all God's children'.

A long answer! I hope you will stick around and engage, meanwhile I must be off. Have a good day.

I think it would be a shame if virginia was put off posting here. She/he is willing to have a debate so i think being "strident" might be counter productive.

Virginia, please could you define woman without using the word woman?

I think that policing other women's use of language via sexist terms like "strident" is counter productive.