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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women's spaces

45 replies

sapphicflower · 12/04/2018 21:07

Sorry for this really long post, I've been reading for a while and just wanted to share.

TL:DR - allow people to have spaces based on their biology.

Having been subjected to male violence in all manner of ways (I guess due to my femininity, although I wasn't aware that was the case until it stopped when I transitioned physically), it's really obvious to me that it makes a huge difference to people when they're allowed their own spaces based on their biology. I have an incurable "identity disorder" but I'm pretty rational about it, I know I wasn't born female, I know I don't really qualify as a woman - no uterus, no ovaries - it's just that no-one has a cure and actually changing my physical appearance and how I sound changed my life and now I just about fit in to society rather than sticking out. I never want to hurt anyone, and invading spaces isn't ever on my mind. What is usually on my mind is trying not to upset anyone.

I can empathise with women needing their own spaces. I get totally terrified by the majority of trans women when I'm triggered. It's not anything personal, it's just that I know I'm sensitive and I have to try really hard to put people in the "safe" box, so I'm all for some sort of segregation. There's something about needing to feel emotionally safe before healing can happen.

It's got nothing to do with "gender" it's all sorts of things about how people present themselves, personal boundaries, being manipulated, body language, voice etc. I'd hate to upset anyone who is sensitive, so I wouldn't use women's support services unless they were ok with me (I did once and I made sure they were ok with me before I went. It was so, so helpful but also really difficult because I worried that I could upset people. Thankfully I can move on with things on my own now).

I live in what trans people would say was "stealth" and "pass as cis" but I just prefer not to talk about my history partly because it's really distressing and partly because people treat you like crap if you do, including the medical establishment, mental health services, psychologists, therapists etc.. There seems to be this pressure for cis passing people with an identity disorder to out themselves and say look at me - I'm normal. But I'm not, I'm not normal at all, I'm just coping with an incurable disorder and I'm just thankful that people are kind and understanding most of the time.

I think really the way forward is just to provide individual therapy for people with the old fashioned "identity disorder" and allow non-trans women their own spaces. It's really sweet that some spaces are inclusive for people like me, and I know it's hard for people to understand and people find it weird and scary. It's been lifelong scary for me too.

Although I've supported people who feel the need to change with hormones and surgery, I've met so many people who either just aren't aware or are just too pig headed to realise their affect on others. I know they're removing transness from the ICD classification of "mental and behavioural disorders" to "Conditions Related to Sexual Health" - essentially depathologising it, but it just seems right to me that actually it is an identity disorder, and there's a difference between non-trans women and people with an identity disorder.

There's just one thing though, part of having this lifetime disorder is that I just can't tolerate being called male. I'll always support people and want everyone to feel safe, and I'm so sorry I have this condition, I just wish there was an easy answer. I'm not psychotic, and actually I tried anti-psychotics and they made no impact on my identity disorder.

I just want you to know that I've also had difficulty in policing political borders, and I understand your struggle. There's a huge difference between a cross dressing man and someone with a genuine identity disorder, I've been called truscum, and had countless arguments about what it means to have a trans-sex body/mind identity and constantly have to weed out people who just "dress for kicks" or have some kind of kink about it. I understand why women are so worried, and I just want everyone to feel safe. I also worry that criminals will use freedoms for trans people as a cover for their predatory behaviour, I had a friend who worked in Broadmoor and the things she told me about the men there was beyond shocking.

As far as having an identity disorder goes, I completely understand and empathise with others with associated disorders like BIID, and also have some experience of DID, so I'm happy to talk about my experiences and the similarities/differences if people wanted to talk about that, also the differences between BDD (imagined or percieved imperfections / anorexia nervosa), "trans-racial" (not about adoption!) and, believe it or not, "trans-species", which all get conflated.

I think my disorder, and the treatment for it, is really difficult for people to understand, and I really applaud people, and mainstream feminism for its kindness and understanding.

OP posts:
moofolk · 12/04/2018 21:13

Thanks for the insight. And for being the kind of person that, having faced difficulties, has sympathy for others rather than resentment. Thanks

Xxfemale · 12/04/2018 21:14

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 12/04/2018 21:15

Welcome sapphicflower, glad you have delurked Smile

Amethyst975 · 12/04/2018 21:25

Thank you for sharing a little of your story, SapphicFlower. Thanks And welcome! Smile

Terfragette69 · 12/04/2018 21:32

I think it's really interesting to hear from reasonable trans people, and I feel very sorry for you that you are so uncomfortable in your own body. Do you think it is a mental disorder, it sounds like you do?

Greymisty · 12/04/2018 22:10

Thank you for sharing some of your story. Have you considered writing to your mp to share your views and experiences? It's quite a private way to have your say.

UpstartCrow · 12/04/2018 22:17

Thank you for your post sapphicflower, and welcome to Mumsnet.

You write well, do you have a blog?

Katara · 12/04/2018 22:24

That is a really open and insightful post, thank you. I am sorry you have been abused Flowers.
The debate on trans and women’s spaces can become very heated and polarised. It is important that female safe spaces are protected, but I think it is important people with identity disorders also have support and are treated respectfully. It sounds like you have had a difficult path to navigate.

CharlieParley · 12/04/2018 23:38

sapphicflower thank you for your bravery in sharing what is clearly an intensely private and sensitive issue for you. Obviously, I do not know what it feels like to have this identity disorder, but you have described it so well that I can at least understand how hard it must have been for you to go through all that.

It's also interesting what you say about knowing your biology but being upset at being called male (presumably you mean online?) because you say you pass IRL and people therefore just accept you as you now present yourself? As you are?

Thank you for your support for women and your understanding of our concerns about safe spaces. It is much appreciated. I hope we can support you in return.

CardsforKittens · 12/04/2018 23:47

Thank you sapphicflower Flowers

sapphicflower · 13/04/2018 01:00

Wow, I'm totally bowled over, thank you for your understanding and kindness, I honestly wasn't expecting it.

Do I think it's a mental disorder - yes, I do. And no hormones and surgery don't make me a woman, they just made me fit in better.

Have I considered writing to my MP - Not until now, it's hard, some things I try not to dwell on. Who do I write to, my elected MP or the one I like?!

Do people just accept me as I am? Yes, they do, I get normative assumptions (pregnancy etc) and I don't get questioned or stared at (I'm quite sensitive about what is going on around me).

OP posts:
sapphicflower · 13/04/2018 01:00

Wow, I'm totally bowled over, thank you for your understanding and kindness, I honestly wasn't expecting it.

Do I think it's a mental disorder - yes, I do. And no hormones and surgery don't make me a woman, they just made me fit in better.

Have I considered writing to my MP - Not until now, it's hard, some things I try not to dwell on. Who do I write to, my elected MP or the one I like?!

Do people just accept me as I am? Yes, they do, I get normative assumptions (pregnancy etc) and I don't get questioned or stared at (I'm quite sensitive about what is going on around me).

OP posts:
sapphicflower · 13/04/2018 01:02

I'm sorry I don't know why that came out twice!

OP posts:
TripleRainbow · 13/04/2018 01:35

Welcome CakeThanksBrewWineSmile

Sorry to hear about your struggles, and thank you for sharing. Your post is incredibly personal, it must have been challenging to write, so thank you again.

I hope my question is not too intrusive, if so, of course please feel free to ignore, but I would love to know more about your motivation to post on MN? As I said, if you do not feel comfortable with my question, apologies. Just ignore.

The reason I ask is because MN is a forum which is extremely unfairly painted as being against trans rights, which just isn't true, the people posting here are pro-women's rights (who wouldn't be Confused)

Welcome to MN Sapphicflower Thanks

sapphicflower · 13/04/2018 02:34

Cake, coffee and wine, wow that's a welcome!! I wish I knew how to emoji!

Yes it was challenging and I stressed about it for weeks, but I'm glad that I did, it's really an eye opener!

I think partly it's because I think it's really important to have safe spaces, but I'm concerned about the implications of unscrupulous people finding ways around systems that are designed to protect people.

I've been attacked online as well, and called truscum etc. I'm also a parent and try to be a decent feminist. I can't remember how I got here tbh, but I think I was just googling and came across it by accident? I've read a few tweets about MN, but they were links from here, I'm not into twitter or anything. There are a number of news articles I've read that point here too, but I think it was just google.

OP posts:
Katara · 13/04/2018 07:09

If you look under the box you are typing on, there are the codes for the emojis. Or on my phone there is just a smiley face which you click on for the choice. Basically it is

Square bracket item Square bracket

So
Square bracket cake square bracket = Cake

Smile
howlsmovingcastle84 · 13/04/2018 07:23

Welcome to Mumsnet! Here is some gin in case you're not a wine drinker Gin (though it's a bit early to start now)

For MPs you would usually write to whoever is your local MP. You could also write to the relevant cabinet minister.

LittleLebowski · 13/04/2018 07:25

sapphicflower Hi, the more voices like yours we get to hear, then the better for all of us in my opinion.
I get so tired of it being framed as a "feminists vs trans rights" debate when it's not. There are so many different experiences, nuances and impacts of proposed reforms and we're just asking for them all to be considered very carefully.
I think partly it's because I think it's really important to have safe spaces, but I'm concerned about the implications of unscrupulous people finding ways around systems that are designed to protect people.
I totally agree this is the issue. People like you have never been and never will be the problem. I hope you carry on contributing to the threads on MN; it enriches the discussions for the rest of us. Brew

Terfragette69 · 13/04/2018 09:35

I'm really glad you feel safe to post here OP. We are not the evil bigoted monsters we are portrayed as. Hopefully you will see that for yourself. We are not against trans people, many of us have trans friends, we are concerned about the impact of transgenderism and the rights and safety of women and children. In real life if I were to witness a trans person being bullied I would be the first to defend them, but there is a growing sinister edge to the tra's that is fueling this divide. Welcome 🍷

GoodyMog · 13/04/2018 10:50

"There seems to be this pressure for cis passing people with an identity disorder to out themselves and say look at me - I'm normal. But I'm not, I'm not normal at all, I'm just coping with an incurable disorder and I'm just thankful that people are kind and understanding most of the time."

This is upsetting, because there are clearly people like you suffering intensely, but your experience has been co-opted by others.

Have you noticed any change in the help available to you since the distancing from it being a mental health issue started?

sorenipples · 13/04/2018 10:52

Thanks Sapphic for your post. Sorry to hear what you have gone through, but I think it really helps inform debate.

This rather long (sorry) post is my personal thoughts and seeking dialogue to develop them -please no one quote as being the view of mumsnet, we are all different.

Personally I am happy to call you a woman as a courtesy, particularly if this has a beneficial effect on your mental health. But I would consider this a politeness not a redefinition of the term. In a circumstance where sex mattered I would refer to your biological sex or as a transwoman . I also wouldn't expect my courtesy to entitle you to automatic access sex segregated services, although I would like to think on a case by case basis you could access them if appropriate and not to the detriment of other service users. Essentially (biological ) women and girls first then whatever can be reasonably done to assist you.

Does this approach satisfy you? Do you find it patronising?

I find the Internet can appear awash with aggressive voices, demanding the word woman be redefined and that access to sex segregation services puts trans identified people first then women second. It's really easy when you hear this over and over again to retreat to a defensive position, and draw a line in the sand for fear that if it is blurred out of politeness the battle for the definition of the word woman will be lost. Posts like yours remind me that (maybe due to my female socialisation ) I value being kind and there are people like you I wish well to and do not wish to see damaged in the cross fire. I do however struggle to see how this kindness could be enforced by law without serious room for abuse.

SomeDyke · 13/04/2018 11:34

Thanks for sharing. But I have to add that I find your choice of username rather upsetting. Sappho matters a lot to lesbians (hence the very name, given her place of residence), and to women given her importance as a poet. So, others calling you Sapphic, really grates. Appropriation of an important part of womens and lesbian history.

sorenipples · 13/04/2018 12:04

Apologies I was ignorant in using it in my reply. Am now educated.

sapphireflower · 13/04/2018 22:00

I'm so sorry for my ignorance and hurt, educated also :(

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 13/04/2018 22:14

Hi sapphireflower Flowers

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