Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women's spaces

45 replies

sapphicflower · 12/04/2018 21:07

Sorry for this really long post, I've been reading for a while and just wanted to share.

TL:DR - allow people to have spaces based on their biology.

Having been subjected to male violence in all manner of ways (I guess due to my femininity, although I wasn't aware that was the case until it stopped when I transitioned physically), it's really obvious to me that it makes a huge difference to people when they're allowed their own spaces based on their biology. I have an incurable "identity disorder" but I'm pretty rational about it, I know I wasn't born female, I know I don't really qualify as a woman - no uterus, no ovaries - it's just that no-one has a cure and actually changing my physical appearance and how I sound changed my life and now I just about fit in to society rather than sticking out. I never want to hurt anyone, and invading spaces isn't ever on my mind. What is usually on my mind is trying not to upset anyone.

I can empathise with women needing their own spaces. I get totally terrified by the majority of trans women when I'm triggered. It's not anything personal, it's just that I know I'm sensitive and I have to try really hard to put people in the "safe" box, so I'm all for some sort of segregation. There's something about needing to feel emotionally safe before healing can happen.

It's got nothing to do with "gender" it's all sorts of things about how people present themselves, personal boundaries, being manipulated, body language, voice etc. I'd hate to upset anyone who is sensitive, so I wouldn't use women's support services unless they were ok with me (I did once and I made sure they were ok with me before I went. It was so, so helpful but also really difficult because I worried that I could upset people. Thankfully I can move on with things on my own now).

I live in what trans people would say was "stealth" and "pass as cis" but I just prefer not to talk about my history partly because it's really distressing and partly because people treat you like crap if you do, including the medical establishment, mental health services, psychologists, therapists etc.. There seems to be this pressure for cis passing people with an identity disorder to out themselves and say look at me - I'm normal. But I'm not, I'm not normal at all, I'm just coping with an incurable disorder and I'm just thankful that people are kind and understanding most of the time.

I think really the way forward is just to provide individual therapy for people with the old fashioned "identity disorder" and allow non-trans women their own spaces. It's really sweet that some spaces are inclusive for people like me, and I know it's hard for people to understand and people find it weird and scary. It's been lifelong scary for me too.

Although I've supported people who feel the need to change with hormones and surgery, I've met so many people who either just aren't aware or are just too pig headed to realise their affect on others. I know they're removing transness from the ICD classification of "mental and behavioural disorders" to "Conditions Related to Sexual Health" - essentially depathologising it, but it just seems right to me that actually it is an identity disorder, and there's a difference between non-trans women and people with an identity disorder.

There's just one thing though, part of having this lifetime disorder is that I just can't tolerate being called male. I'll always support people and want everyone to feel safe, and I'm so sorry I have this condition, I just wish there was an easy answer. I'm not psychotic, and actually I tried anti-psychotics and they made no impact on my identity disorder.

I just want you to know that I've also had difficulty in policing political borders, and I understand your struggle. There's a huge difference between a cross dressing man and someone with a genuine identity disorder, I've been called truscum, and had countless arguments about what it means to have a trans-sex body/mind identity and constantly have to weed out people who just "dress for kicks" or have some kind of kink about it. I understand why women are so worried, and I just want everyone to feel safe. I also worry that criminals will use freedoms for trans people as a cover for their predatory behaviour, I had a friend who worked in Broadmoor and the things she told me about the men there was beyond shocking.

As far as having an identity disorder goes, I completely understand and empathise with others with associated disorders like BIID, and also have some experience of DID, so I'm happy to talk about my experiences and the similarities/differences if people wanted to talk about that, also the differences between BDD (imagined or percieved imperfections / anorexia nervosa), "trans-racial" (not about adoption!) and, believe it or not, "trans-species", which all get conflated.

I think my disorder, and the treatment for it, is really difficult for people to understand, and I really applaud people, and mainstream feminism for its kindness and understanding.

OP posts:
BarrackerBarmer · 13/04/2018 23:08

Hi sapphireflower

I have sympathy for anyone struggling with acceptance of themselves, and hope you find self-acceptance.

In public life I would support your rights to express yourself freely and be free from discrimination and abuse. I'd wish you and your family happiness.

In sex-based spaces and services I would hope for you that a solution is found that meets your personal needs but does not involve your being included in the female category - and I would wish that this be the same when it comes to distinguishing my legally recognised sex from yours. I also reject fiercely any efforts to categorise me as having a 'gender' rather than a biological sex.

In short, I need to distinguish myself clearly from you where our respective sexes are pertinent to the situation, but I would hope that this could be done in a way that is as sensitive as possible.

Does this sound like we would have common ground between our respective rights?

May I ask, when you fathered your child, did you feel dysphoric about being called male then, or did this happen later?

CharlieParley · 13/04/2018 23:13

Sorry, I didn't know either. Thank you for letting us know though.

And hi again sapphireflower Wine

CardsforKittens · 13/04/2018 23:26

Hi sapphireflower ! I'm glad you're here and I'd like to hear more from you.

If we can ask questions... can I ask you how long ago you transitioned and what's changed for you in that time? (But please don't feel you have to answer my questions - I'm keen on discussing things but don't want to pressure anyone).

Waddlelikeapenguin · 13/04/2018 23:47

Hi sapphireflower Flowers

Please do write to your MP your voice is important Smile (theyworkforyou.com will tell you who if you're not sure ).

busyboysmum · 14/04/2018 00:28

Hello and welcome @sapphireflower

I would also be interested to hear about your journey from fathering a child to transitioning.

Do you now ask your child to call you mum? How have they reacted to this change?

I hope you feel welcome on this board.

sapphireflower · 14/04/2018 00:29

Goodymog - there isn't any help.

The reality for people with mental health problems is really there is no support. That's all thanks to "care in the community" - politicians basically invented the phrase and forgot the funding.

I go to a drop in for people with MH problems and the reality for most people is very low/no income plus being/coping any way we can. I'm lucky that I have an income and that's only because of legal protections that happened in 2008 otherwise I would have been fired for sure.

I think the worst thing that happens is when children are separated from their parents because of such little funding in the MH system. I've heard of children being torn from their families because a parent has depression and made an attempt to end their life. I know children need emotional safety but if only people are helped and supported through depressive episodes and then reunited after treatment it would be a far better thing for everyone. There's so much stigma and shame about it.

People always refer to me as a woman IRL and that's just because that's what they see physically. I've known that all along and that's why I changed my body and everything, it makes life bearable, but I don't want you to feel forced or coerced into anything that makes you feel uncomfortable. I'm perfectly happy without any gendered terms at all, although my identity disorder and other stuff means that I get triggered by masculine terms/people. My work is basically looking after families and children and helping people feel safe and supported, so it's quite safe in that respect.

I don't feel entitled to any services, I have to be really careful because of my triggers. I've decided not to go to any endocrine services, my GP, my CPN. It's odd but my psychiatrist is actually really sweet and kind and he doesn't trigger me, I see him for MDD and I have to try and stay alive for the sake of my children. Sorry, may be TMI. But services/society/schema are all designed and built around sex-congruent people, I've personally found it impossible to navigate them.

There isn't really any place in society for people like me, it's only a few generations ago that I'd likely be in an asylum, treated with aversion therapy, ECT, lobotomy etc. (Although there still is a place for ECT in the NHS, it's much more refined these days, so I've read.

sapphireflower · 14/04/2018 00:29

Goodymog - there isn't any help.

The reality for people with mental health problems is really there is no support. That's all thanks to "care in the community" - politicians basically invented the phrase and forgot the funding.

I go to a drop in for people with MH problems and the reality for most people is very low/no income plus being/coping any way we can. I'm lucky that I have an income and that's only because of legal protections that happened in 2008 otherwise I would have been fired for sure.

I think the worst thing that happens is when children are separated from their parents because of such little funding in the MH system. I've heard of children being torn from their families because a parent has depression and made an attempt to end their life. I know children need emotional safety but if only people are helped and supported through depressive episodes and then reunited after treatment it would be a far better thing for everyone. There's so much stigma and shame about it.

People always refer to me as a woman IRL and that's just because that's what they see physically. I've known that all along and that's why I changed my body and everything, it makes life bearable, but I don't want you to feel forced or coerced into anything that makes you feel uncomfortable. I'm perfectly happy without any gendered terms at all, although my identity disorder and other stuff means that I get triggered by masculine terms/people. My work is basically looking after families and children and helping people feel safe and supported, so it's quite safe in that respect.

I don't feel entitled to any services, I have to be really careful because of my triggers. I've decided not to go to any endocrine services, my GP, my CPN. It's odd but my psychiatrist is actually really sweet and kind and he doesn't trigger me, I see him for MDD and I have to try and stay alive for the sake of my children. Sorry, may be TMI. But services/society/schema are all designed and built around sex-congruent people, I've personally found it impossible to navigate them.

There isn't really any place in society for people like me, it's only a few generations ago that I'd likely be in an asylum, treated with aversion therapy, ECT, lobotomy etc. (Although there still is a place for ECT in the NHS, it's much more refined these days, so I've read.

AngryAttackKittens · 14/04/2018 01:04

Care in the community was a fucking travesty. I remember it being rolled out (is middle aged) and that people predicted what a mess it would create. As usual nobody listened.

Wombman · 14/04/2018 01:28

Hi sapphire flower it's great to hear your story.Gin

sapphireflower · 14/04/2018 01:46

I'm so sorry about the double postings, idk what that is about.

I can't answer in any detail about when I transitioned or anything that might be identifiable, I'm sure you understand. People like me get doxed, my family are at risk from abuse, my livelihood is at risk. It's a big risk even chatting on here, lovely though it is. I've been dysphoric all my life, it has presented itself in different ways throughout my life and I accepted the treatment, and it has helped a lot.

Outsiders always refer to me as their mum, because I look like a woman. They don't remember before I transitioned. They faced equal stigma from their peers and society, they've found ways to cope and I've supported them with as much love and time and therapy that I can. I support their ways of coping which is individual to each of them. They have similar struggles to any family where two parents are perceived to be women.

I'm not really a "rights" kind of person. I don't have a right to be who I am, there's not really any way forward from there.

Greymisty · 14/04/2018 02:27

I think everyone is entitled to be treated with respect and dignity. The mental health services are a joke as a society we could do much better. I'm glad your experiences with you psychiatrist have been positive and you feel comfortable with him.

Hope your enjoying or at least finding it interesting being on mumsnet Flowers

BettyFloop · 14/04/2018 03:24

sapphireflower you most certainly have a right to be who you are! Every human person everywhere has that right.
While patriarchal ideology - under which we all live - may deny you/us that right in its attempt to coerce and bully you/us into conformity, feminism of the radical kind (i.e. not the "fun" kind) will support you in living your life free from imposed "gender" stereotypes. Because that's what we do. Flowers

CATTamongstthepigeons · 14/04/2018 06:36

Hello and welcome.

There isn't really any place in society for people like me,

This is so sad to read. And it’s why we should be fighting together for rights. Thank you for posting. It’s important that we gain an understanding of other people’s experiences.

Ereshkigal · 14/04/2018 17:28

sapphire Thanks thank you for your posts.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 14/04/2018 17:48

Hi sapphire

Thanks Grin
Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 14/04/2018 17:49

Actually that shoukd probably be a welcoming Smile

That Grin can look at bit scary

Id back right out of a new place if someone grinned like that as i walked in

Ereshkigal · 14/04/2018 17:50
Grin
Thanksforthatamazingpost · 14/04/2018 18:01

Hi Sapphire,
Just to say you were very gracious about the username issue and welcome.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 14/04/2018 18:23

I couldn't agree more with what you say about mental health services. I have huge respect for people who keep on battling through MDD despite not receiving anything approaching adequate care.

In theory, at least, you have every right to whatever services you need. You absolutely have every right to be who you are.

SecretsRSecrets · 14/04/2018 18:28

@sapphireflower Welcome to MN.Flowers

Thank you for sharing your story.Wine

New posts on this thread. Refresh page