Boston Marathon (2nd version)

[ShotsFired]

"Transgender runners will be able to compete as their self-identified gender in the Boston Marathon on Monday, 16 April."

The article concludes:
"Perhaps critics concerned about fair competition when trans women run as women should turn their attention to the dehydration, reduced stamina and dizziness caused by treatments such as testosterone blockers. "

www.indy100.com/article/trans-women-compete-identified-gender-boston-marathon-criticism-transphobia-8297331

Ta muchly shots

Are there any high profile, or otherwise, trans people who compete in their sport according to their biological sex?

Or are all competitors subject to being tested for testosterone levels now?

That was a strange deletion. A bit closer to home (for those of us not in Boston), here's the link to the Scottish hill ultra race that is allowing entrants to run in the category they identify with: Devil o the highlands race

Janner18, cyclist Molly Cameron is interesting. She tried to race with women, but at the time (2008) she wasn't allowed to as the rules stated then that only men with GRS could complete as women.

So she went back to competing (quite successfully) in the men's events. Until 2015 when she was told she could no longer compete as a man because her birth cert and passport now said "female" . (using "she" as otherwise the whole thing gets confusing)

It's also worth mentioning wrestler Mack Begg who was born female and is still competing in women's events despite taking testosterone and other drugs as part of his transition. As far as I can see if he was still claiming to be female he'd be banned for cheating, so the rules are, at best, confusing.

It will be very interesting to see how he manages when/if they do move him to men's categories - though I suspect in a sport where weight categories sort things out a little bit, he'll do better than he would in a sport where all men are put in together and he might be facing someone twice his height and weight.

Big year for trans sport. Massive test of acceptance in Rio and the ground must be prepped with the public. Did they realise Laurel Hubbard was a mistake? Too high profile to soften up the public? So now - a lower profile event with thousands more competitors, not a guaranteed trans winner, a real feel-good race as all marathons are, probably running for kids charities, everybody gets the warm fuzzy feels, these guys get extra cheers in their rainbow dresses, lots of tv fun shots, not overtly the only man against all the women, guaranteed smiley press interviews and social media 'brave and beautiful' schlock. Its a pre-Olypmpic softener-upper for the public.

interesting theory pratchet. wonder if it works both ways.

Maryz, thanks. Assuming that is a picture of Molly competing as a woman that is clearly ridiculous. I'm not interested in sports but I am interested in fairness. Women's sports was barely starting to be taken seriously in the mainstream, what a short window it had.

Surely there are some trans women who recognise the unfairness and compete within their biological sex? Surely?

Shocked that the first thread was deleted. I saw it earlier and wanted to comment since I'm near Boston. I have no desire to run a marathon but sometimes we go and watch it. I'm soo pissed off this year. I can't even enjoy all the feel good news segments. There are always stories about cancer survivors and people pushing their disabled children and since the bombing, survivors and doctors and nurses and first responders. A man who has decided he's a woman now and has clicked the female box on the form is not the same as the bombing survivor who's running the marathon with her new prosthetic leg! Jesus.

They aren't testing testosterone or anything like that, all a person needs to do is check the box and have an ID that claims they're female.

In my head I'm composing a letter to the Boston Athletic Association complaining about this. I'll send it once I'm able to be coherent. Too mad right now. Tired of silently fuming and I'm inspired by all the Women's place meetings and Man Friday and all that.

Also it's interesting that except for Fox News, I haven't found any local news sites that are allowing comments.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5593215/Marathon-organizers-Chicago-Boston-NYC-LA-say-transgender-women-compete.html

WAWAG?

Will they take men at their word when they say their time qualifies them because they are 80 when they are 25?

I’m sitting here shocked that I watched something on Fox News and liked it.

Once I get over that shock I’m sure that I’ll remember that it is unreasonable to demand entry to something with an age restriction because you identify as a different age. 16 year olds can’t just self-identify as 18 for the purposes of buying alcohol. 40 year olds can’t self identify as 65 year olds to access a pension.

But if you say you are a different SEX then sure, that’s all we need and you can totally head on in.

Women don’t engage in sporting activities at the same rate as men. And those who do know perfectly well that they will be paid less (if professional) have less media exposure and likely have fewer resources made available to them. And men resent women having even a tiny piece of the pie so much that it took only until the second season of Women’s AFL for a man to join a women’s team.

This person is absolutely entitled to wear his hair as he likes and wear whatever clothing is deemed suitable for the activity in colours and styles of choice. But surely there is room in the male estate for biological males who prefer stereotypical female clothing, hairstyles and names????

The DM headline includes this

It's unclear how organizers will deal with athletes who identify as women but do not have the identification to match their claim

Well, that makes it clear that we are not talking about FTM because there is no actual benefit for people in that category to join the estate of the gender they identify with.

Also noticed that one of the athletes says that running in this marathon was a major motivator for transitioning. I’m not sure how to read that without believing that they knew they couldn’t meet qualifying requirements as a man so rather than training harder they went through a complicated process so they could qualify in the ‘easier’ category.

I came across this interesting study that analysed differences in performance of men vs women across various professional sports, which I think is more useful than focussing on biology.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3761733/
I'm not an academic - so correct me if I'm missing something - but, in short, men run faster, throw further, etc: more power, and so on and there is a consistent gap that isn't getting any closer (although the author admits that may change.)

Even without this study the argument that oestrogen make them weaker smacks of "lady brain" misogyny to me and seems to come from biased (pro-trans rather than objective) sources

I hope in time there will be a study on this. Maybe where they look at VO2max and other measures of performance for women, men, TIM and TIF so we can get some objective facts on this. Until then it's just more gaslighting and an erosion of female spaces with feelz trumping biology.

Linked from the DM piece is this: www.fox32chicago.com/news/boston-and-chicago-marathons-say-transgender-women-can-compete-as-women

Several other major marathons said they have no official policies but are taking a similar approach to Boston. Organizers of the Chicago, New York City, London and Los Angeles marathons all said they honor the gender that runners submit during sign-ups.

• Great, so now pretty much all the biggies are going to let men take the women's records.

"We want to be inclusive and sensitive to all of our participants," said Carey Pinkowski, Chicago Marathon executive race director.

• Except the female ones, obvs.

But there's still a wrinkle: Many races, including Boston, New York and Chicago, require runners to show IDs with the same names and genders as their application forms, which can be an obstacle for trans athletes who haven't legally changed their personal information.

• Kinda puts the mockers on anyone claiming to be serious about being trans then. Almost as if they are just in it for the glory.

Boston is among few marathons where even nonprofessional runners have to meet strict qualifying times based on age and gender, and some runners spend years trying to qualify.

So based on that article, there are at least five women now denied a place in their own sex category of this "inclusive" event to accommodate men. For fucking fucks sake.

BTW, @BitterLittlePoster that article I referenced in my previous post says "Race officials said they haven't fielded complaints but will monitor their policies to make sure they're inclusive". I'm sure you can change that.

the argument that oestrogen make them weaker smacks of "lady brain" misogyny to me

There are physical changes in males from taking female hormones but it still won't change their overall body shape (more streamline, longer limbs, bigger feet/hands etc).

It's unclear that muscle/bone density is reduced as much as to that of a woman. Maybe less than your average man but still greater than your average women.

The devil of the highland race linked above allows people to register as non-binary. But the prize giving categories are male and female. So how does that work? Is entry based on gender but prize categories based on sex?

The psychologist in that Fox interview was cut off but she was saying how it'll be complicated because more people are now identifying as non-binary.

Maybe we should just go back to a split based on biological sex!

Anyway very few Transgender people actually opt for hormones. It's really easy in the USA to get "female / male" changed on your driving licence I think that's all you need to do to qualify to run. You don't actually need to be on hormones or do anything else.

Black eyed Susan: I don't understand 'work both ways'

Can we start talking about this to our friends and family?

I think the examples of Lauren Hubbel and the Boston Marathon are perfect examples of what 'the public' will see as WTF moments. Especially men, because sport is an issue for many men.

Just a casual mention could make a difference.

I have had a conversation with family member in NZ... in space of couple of days she has gone from being fiercely defensive of LH to now being a massive fan of Peach Yoghurt, providing useful information to friends whose 16 yr old daughter is now taking hormones and has changed their name etc, speaking with their art group etc and generally going 'O fuck!'

That's brilliant Rowan.

& I'll add that she is still absolute that Lauren competed within the rules and should not be held individually responsible / attacked or bullied. So am I... its about the rules, understanding how they have come to be changed and recognising the wider implications.

Its really interesting to have seen how even as far away as NZ, its the same small set of beliefs/manipulations/arguments etc

Unrelated to WAWAG this is all going to lead sports governing bodies into some difficult territory around doping and fairness rules in general relating to acceptable drug usage and enhancements.