Dealing with inflammatory posts re Trans on MN

[womanformallyknownaswoman]

I am concerned to see the message below from MNHQ at the end of the T thread. Regarding posts that I consider "goady", I have a personal policy of not feeding them, not engaging and not rising to the bait. I ignore them. OPs looking for conflict as a way to feed themselves won't get it from me. Firstly, it's exhausting-they are not interested in dialogue, despite what they say, and secondly the best way to deal with them, imo, is to starve them of attention and not rise to the bait. Don't give them what they want i.e. a fight and conflict.

My concern is I predict there will be a lot more new threads and OPs looking for a fight, as the public becomes more aware of the issues and the tide starts to turn against TRAs. They will want to try and get this Place closed down for discussion, and none of us want that to happen.

Personally I have found it empowering to learn how not to engage and to turn it back on them if absolutely necessary, by the use of ridicule and short rebuttals of their nonsense. I am happy to share some techniques if it will help plus learn more from others. There's no point in trying to score points and win all the arguments they make as it's the engagement down their rabbit holes they want - they literally feed off conflict. They're anti-social remember, so any attention is better than none. They want to keep you coming back and arguing, so they can derail, prolong, provoke and generally make life difficult for MNHQ - to force them to take action. The negative attention "turns on" those looking for a fight….so please don't feed them, ignore them and lets keep this place open.

Message for MN:

Hi all

Since this thread is getting near its end, this seems like a good moment to make a really serious point.

We've just made some more deletions on this thread, and we're pretty exasperated tbh - we feel we're running out of ways to say 'please stick within the TGs or risk losing MN as a place to discuss this issue.'

We're really proud of our commitment to free speech, and we put a huge amount of time and resources to enabling this debate to take place - as many of you have pointed out, it's one of the few places left.

To those who haven't yet been able to stop and look at things from our end of the barrel - please understand that you're risking this space for everyone; if you really can't debate civilly with those you disagree with, it might be time to consider that MN is no longer the place for you. We're sorry to have to say this - we don't like it one bit - but tbh nothing else seems to have got through so far: we're at a point of last resort.

Thanks to all those who modify their first instincts and manage to make their points in a calm, considered and civilised manner - even in the face of goadiness. We appreciate it (and so would Michelle.)

Thanks all

MNHQ

I think the idea that for some girls expressing as a boy in a contagion like fashion and with a comparison to anorexia is a very interesting observation. And it might well need some research.

Though I imagine that will be resisted by trans activists.

This is another area of this debate that has always mystified me, because I also think it shows a difference with then and now or transsexuals and transgender

I cannot imagine why anyone going through the kind of dysphoria we did would not want as much research as possible to uncover causes and the efficacy of treatment methods. When you have cancer you fight to raise funds for more research and to hope they find a cause and a new way of treating it that might help others in future suffer less.

I feel exactly that way about what happened to me. I have no idea what caused it and for me, personally, it no longer really matters as I have handled it and coped. But I sure as hell want to stop this same nightmare happening to others if it is possible as the dysphoria is insidious and horrible and if we can find a cause and from that cause maybe a way to treat it that others will choose as they find it less disruptive - then that is what anyone should want.

So when I see all this talk about it being a thing that just is and part of you and not an illness and we don't really need to know about it just accept it happens and get on with it I feel as apart from that kind of perspective as I suspect many of you do.

The desire to silence research or use terms like 'conversion cures' seems to me baffling and rather selfish because I keep thinking - don't you care if it is possible to make things better for your children or their children?

We should always seek to understand a puzzle as the first step to define the best ways to deal with it that cause less pain and suffering.

Hurray for Hope :)

Ophelia and terfing - see the 'In Active' thread. It seems likely that MNHQ are having the heat on them turned up.

Interesting discussion on the @mumsnettowers twitter. Usual accusations of transphobia - but this conversation thread as well:

twitter.com/Defend_Reality/status/984007607340949505

"Lol it’s a shame more transwomen aren’t political, if they knew a man wearing makeup with a beard is now considered trans they’d be pissed asf. Everytime I’ve brought it up they are like what? And I’m like yeah this is why the bathroom thing is going on"

I heartily agree.

There’s a woman on that twitter thread stating that 30% more “cis” women have AGP than men.

Eh? How does that one work then?

People on twitter say very strange things.

Totally off topic but whenever I hear about AGP or any fetishes really I just think ‘how do they find the time?’
I mean I’m fucking knackered, I’m lucky if I have the energy to get a quick 5 mins with a vibrator, there’s no way I could be arsed to create a full rubber suit and clop around my yard like a pony.
Do these people not have jobs?

I also think a lot of creative play in adults is framed as fetish because we frown upon adults playing in our culture, and actually lots of people just like to dress up and feel nice.
(This isn’t really about AGP just in general).

There’s a woman on that twitter thread stating that 30% more “cis” women have AGP than men.

There are also people who claim the world is flat.

I agree about having the time to dress up full body rubber etc. Who can be bothered.

Oh I got into a long discussion with the 30% cis woman recently.

However, the conversation wasn't quite so angry and I felt she tried to listen, but everything I said was either transphobic or reducing women to their biology, which apparently was wrong as a feminist. She seems to have many friends with trans children.

I'd love to meet all these feminists who think the word woman is meaningless. Wonder where they hang out?

I'm ashamed to say I told her to fuck off. Now I feel bad.

But it’s not reducing women to biology to say that what makes a woman a woman is biological.

I mean what do they think it is? Wearing a fucking dress?

Oh dear. Chanel TGLWGH and apologise?

We ended up disagreeing and wishing each other well.

I did find it interesting that she doesn't have children. This is a controversial POV and I don't wish to upset anyone but I did wonder if that changed her experience. I must say I was very different as a younger, childless and single, professional woman.

But it’s not reducing women to biology to say that what makes a woman a woman is biological.

That's what I tried to point out using personal examples but she couldn't see my POV and swung it back to feminists attacking trans people.

I don’t have children, but I work with pregnant women and women with new babies and the change that that makes to someone’s world view is inescapable. I’ve had lots of conversations with women where they say they feel they’ve basically been lied to their whole life’s and their bodies were only loaned to them until they’d had children.
The amount of talented, clever, amazing women being talked over and made to feel like they don’t know what’s best for themselves is shocking.

I dont want to mention names...cos i cant remember it

But there was someone arguing yesterday that i agreed with most of the time and they seemed so lovely and agreed with other posters it was really nice to read

They had some stuff they were not going to budge on but seemed open to new thoughts

I say seem because it might just have been a massive trick

I shoudve said something on the thread

That was my revelation tea.

Sometimes I feel like I'm going crazy with this. We do not 'reduce' ourselves to our biology, we are oppressed because of it.

I refuse to be reduced to traditional gender roles - pink brain/blue brain rubbish. That's what trans-ideology is reinforcing.

Going back to the original post that opened this thread - it is nice to be able to discuss without name calling and hostility. And I'm sure that can be the experience for the person with the opposing view.

Which is why we need this thread l.

I refuse to be reduced to traditional gender roles - pink brain/blue brain rubbish. That's what trans-ideology is reinforcing.

I wish I'd thought if that line in that twitter conversation!

It's also the "don't define women by their biology" - it's almost impossible not to do this. Until kids it was only my biology that differentiated me from males (periods, less strength and therefore more vulnerable to being attacked/ raped), afterwards it was hugely different; economically, physical damage of child birth, making to choice to breastfeed brought certain changes to lifestyle that my husband didn't need to do etc. Not even getting started on gender stereotypes in society.

I cannot fathom how a feminist cannot see that it's due to our biology that women get a shit deal.

There's a very difficult to read article about the history of women's oppression, but it makes the point that until farming, society was matriarchal (for a loooooong time). After farming, women were needed to create the children to work the farms and do the wife work. (Simplified)

I think we have all done a great job of staying reasoned and calm in the face of much covert provocation on this thread. We had some great practice with sea lions. As long as we all keep our anger in check, we win, because though normal for the unrelenting provocation here and outside, it gives fuel to the faux-victims. So as long as there's enough of us, like geese flying in formation, if we take it in turns to take the lead into the headwind, we'll all get there in the end. When tired, we let go of the lead and go to the back to stay in the slip -stream of those in front and coast for a little well earned rest.

They are really pushing this 'most women have AGP' thing. Do they think most men have APP?

It's bogglingly foolish.