Dealing with inflammatory posts re Trans on MN

[womanformallyknownaswoman]

I am concerned to see the message below from MNHQ at the end of the T thread. Regarding posts that I consider "goady", I have a personal policy of not feeding them, not engaging and not rising to the bait. I ignore them. OPs looking for conflict as a way to feed themselves won't get it from me. Firstly, it's exhausting-they are not interested in dialogue, despite what they say, and secondly the best way to deal with them, imo, is to starve them of attention and not rise to the bait. Don't give them what they want i.e. a fight and conflict.

My concern is I predict there will be a lot more new threads and OPs looking for a fight, as the public becomes more aware of the issues and the tide starts to turn against TRAs. They will want to try and get this Place closed down for discussion, and none of us want that to happen.

Personally I have found it empowering to learn how not to engage and to turn it back on them if absolutely necessary, by the use of ridicule and short rebuttals of their nonsense. I am happy to share some techniques if it will help plus learn more from others. There's no point in trying to score points and win all the arguments they make as it's the engagement down their rabbit holes they want - they literally feed off conflict. They're anti-social remember, so any attention is better than none. They want to keep you coming back and arguing, so they can derail, prolong, provoke and generally make life difficult for MNHQ - to force them to take action. The negative attention "turns on" those looking for a fight….so please don't feed them, ignore them and lets keep this place open.

Message for MN:

Hi all

Since this thread is getting near its end, this seems like a good moment to make a really serious point.

We've just made some more deletions on this thread, and we're pretty exasperated tbh - we feel we're running out of ways to say 'please stick within the TGs or risk losing MN as a place to discuss this issue.'

We're really proud of our commitment to free speech, and we put a huge amount of time and resources to enabling this debate to take place - as many of you have pointed out, it's one of the few places left.

To those who haven't yet been able to stop and look at things from our end of the barrel - please understand that you're risking this space for everyone; if you really can't debate civilly with those you disagree with, it might be time to consider that MN is no longer the place for you. We're sorry to have to say this - we don't like it one bit - but tbh nothing else seems to have got through so far: we're at a point of last resort.

Thanks to all those who modify their first instincts and manage to make their points in a calm, considered and civilised manner - even in the face of goadiness. We appreciate it (and so would Michelle.)

Thanks all

MNHQ

Do you have any comments to make on women's and girls' rights? Just wondering!

@Sue0001 "As a person who was sexually and physically abused as a child and sexually assaulted as an adult I think I can speak about my own experience to live in a place of hope and love." I am really sorry for all you experienced as a child and an adult.

"I refuse to be a victim. I refuse to live in a place of oppression were I am the jail keeper. Life is wonderful, people are wonderful. If you give hate you see hate. I give love I see love."

With respect, as much as I admire your positive approach, (and I really do) your desire not to be a victim of your own terrible circumstances is not a good enough reason to assume that a positive attitude will keep other women and girls safe.

You can choose how to view your experiences and I really do have heartfelt sympathy for all who have been the target of cruelty etc.

But I do personally think that no one has the right to take away other people's boundaries. And a same sex environment for girls and women for personal and intimate situations is essential not just for safety but also for dignity. We will strongly defend this.

"Why are some people so afraid of others being authentic to themselves and to the world in which they live?" I'm afraid males have proven themselves to be very untrustworthy. If males want to be seen as women they need a GRC. Self Id will not do. They are trying to convince us, how can self id ever do that? You know what, some will not even bother with self id, they expect us to believe they are who they say they are. But if 'gender' is between your ears how can anything be proven?

"The real issue is more than 75% of sexual abuse is committed by someone known to the victim. That percentage rises to 90% for children."

Those are indeed appalling statistics. However, we are not talking about someone known to the victim we are talking about public spaces where one is in the company of total strangers. Do you not think that maybe the fact abuse by strangers appears relatively low is because we do currently have some sex segregated spaces?

@AngryAttackKittens You are, as ever, so right... "Women should not have to prove to others (who are these others and why are they the ones who get to decide?) that we deserve a particular place to be single sex on the basis that it's ‘proportionate and legitimate’ to have it in that particular case."

This just goes to prove further that society is not our society, it is men's society. Men and their hand maidens will decide where women can sit, stand, go, be. If we were an equal component of society it would be known we need these spaces. And a third space with private cubicals for anyone who wants anything else.

Thanks Sue0001, we have been aware of the transgender advocates assertion that the vast majority of people are actually transgender and that those who are not make up a tiny minority for some years now.
Until organizations started going into schools to promote this special new class that children can identify into, media promoted transgenderism, and the on line social contagion erupted no one took the trans cult very seriously.
That is why the GRA and EA are not fit for service.

So I am guessing home alone in your own bed just might qualify for a right to single sex occupancy.

Unfortunately as we know, most of the sexual abuse of girls occurs at home, at the hand of their fathers and /or male friends and relatives - often in their own bed - so many girls' right to single safe occupancy is violated very early on in their lives

But hey what about the poor men who were driven to do that /s

media promoted transgenderism, and the on line social contagion erupted no one took the trans cult very seriously

OTOH - it could be argued that being 'trans' became more acceptable socially and people who have hidden themselves away have finally made the plunge to come out - as society has become much more accepting and places like the internet have enabled people to find each other and realise they are not alone.

Sue, I have no interest in questioning anybody's identity or the validity of their requirement for medical treatment.

It would be helpful if you could explain where that quote came from and what point you would like to raise by posting it. The only information I can really get from it is that it is difficult to count trans people.

yetanother that is the alternative possibility, yes. I do worry that, particularly among teenagers, there is an element of experimentation with different gender identities that is labelled as trans and perceived in that way, rather than just gender non-conforming. What do you think?

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/10/transgender-clinic-waiting-times-patient-numbers-soar-gender-identity-services

Found a link to the extract quoted by Sue.

So basically, (and I think as we all know) the existing NHS facilities that provide counselling/advice/treatment are struggling to cope with numbers. Whatever the reason for the increase in numbers, I think that any parent would want their child to receive support from somewhere like the Tavistock, and not rely on random on-line resources.

It isn't really that productive to just copy and paste articles and bits of guidance randomly without participating in a discussion about what you've shared and why, or engaging with feedback. I'm not sure what the purpose is?

I do believe that trans is the new goth amongst groups of teenagers. After all, goths were not known for their gender-conformity

"After all, goths were not known for their gender-conformity"

Ah but back in the day men in skirts were just men in skirts.

It isn't really that productive to just copy and paste articles and bits of guidance randomly without participating in a discussion about what you've shared and why, or engaging with feedback. I'm not sure what the purpose is?

It is being said elsewhere that FWR is where terfs groom and radicalise hapless mums (because being women, presumably, they are unable to make up their own minds) into evil terfery, and that attempts at re-education should be made. I think some new joiners have this impression and are therefore posting positive content about trans people even though it has no relevance to feminism or impact on women and girls. They haven't yet understood that this forum talks about trans issues in the context of any negative impact on women and girls. Outside of potential negative impact on women and girls via the political demands of activists, everyone here wishes all trans people a happy and fulfilled life. Not sure this distinction is widely understood!

Do you have any comments to make on women's and girls' rights?

Exactly. See above!

yetanother I believe that the increased acceptance may account for some of the increase in trans identifying people but the massive surge in teenage girls in particular is too concentrated in one demographic for this to be the case.

Significantly this is the same demographic who previously experienced high levels of anorexia which is now less prevalent.

This for me is key... children and young people deserve a nuanced and sophisticated support & to not have legislation and policy made by single-interest lobbyists.

"Bullying is a compulsive need to displace aggression and is achieved by the expression of inadequacy (social, personal, interpersonal, behavioural, professional) by projection of that inadequacy onto others through control and subjugation (criticism, exclusion, isolation etc). Bullying is sustained by abdication of responsibility (denial, counter-accusation, pretence of victimhood) and perpetuated by a climate of fear, ignorance, indifference, silence, denial, disbelief, deception, evasion of accountability, tolerance and reward (eg promotion) for the bully."

What is bullying?
• constant nit-picking, fault-finding and criticism of a trivial nature - the triviality, regularity and frequency betray bullying; often there is a grain of truth (but only a grain) in the criticism to fool you into believing the criticism has validity, which it does not; often, the criticism is based on distortion, misrepresentation or fabrication
• simultaneous with the criticism, a constant refusal to acknowledge you and your contributions and achievements or to recognise your existence and value
• constant attempts to undermine you and your position, status, worth, value and potential
• where you are in a group (eg at work), being singled out and treated differently; for instance, everyone else can get away with murder but the moment you put a foot wrong - however trivial - action is taken against you

@FeministBadger

Significantly this is the same demographic who previously experienced high levels of anorexia which is now less prevalent.

There was a research report recently posted I think by @flowersonthepiano or perhaps yourself, that had some very interesting to say about men brains plus also, I believe, a section on chemical imbalance in the same part of the brain as anorexics. I may have got all this all wrong btw and I am wary of posting anything about male and female brains as I know it's not true and doesn't account for conditioning.

Can anyone summarise that report in plain english for me please plus the section about anorexics and the differences in that brain area that they have found in men?

@R0wantrees

This for me is key... children and young people deserve a nuanced and sophisticated support & to not have legislation and policy made by single-interest lobbyists.

My turn to say eloquently put :)

@yetanothertranswoman I greatly appreciate your involvement and participation here. I am sure that a small minority of people are 'coming out' because this is high profile and they realise they are not alone. However, you and others managed to find your way to clinics and services that will help transsexuals people.

So I must agree with @flowersonthepiano that there is something more going on here than people just becoming aware of something that is true for them.

I agree with @Beyond11cisRetinol

"I do believe that trans is the new goth amongst groups of teenagers. After all, goths were not known for their gender-conformity"

I am seeing this with my own eyes and hearing about it. I know of at least four girjs who are gender non-confirming to the state where they may identify as boys or where others may identify then as boys. I know of others who are connected to friends (e.g. not personally known to me). I expect others know even more. Are these numbers 'normal' or is social contagion coming into play with ROGD.

Ah but back in the day men in skirts were just men in skirts.

I worry that some day I'll hear from a bloke I knew back then who I haven't spoken to for a while, and he'll be taking estrogen and being pushy about demanding access to women's changing rooms, and then we'll have to have a big fight. Hopefully not, they all seemed sensible enough at the time, but you never know.

Hope Pink

I was following Hope on Twitter, and so I thought I would share this, I think this is an amazing decision. Hope is no longer going to self ID as a woman. Not because Hope is changing the way Hope lives, but has reconciled with being male.

smashinggenderchange.wordpress.com/2018/04/06/dropping-the-id-of-trans-to-protect-women-their-biological-identity/

Aw Hope! I had a little cry reading that. What a lovely lovely person.

I worry that some day I'll hear from a bloke I knew back then

Sigh. I remember in the nineties dreading that I'd run into someone I used to like and he'd have a ponytail. The ante has been upped.

& for those who don't use twitter or are new to this, Hope Pink has had the most extreme targeted attacks on him by some TRAs (just as Miranda has)

As have we.