Dealing with inflammatory posts re Trans on MN

[womanformallyknownaswoman]

I am concerned to see the message below from MNHQ at the end of the T thread. Regarding posts that I consider "goady", I have a personal policy of not feeding them, not engaging and not rising to the bait. I ignore them. OPs looking for conflict as a way to feed themselves won't get it from me. Firstly, it's exhausting-they are not interested in dialogue, despite what they say, and secondly the best way to deal with them, imo, is to starve them of attention and not rise to the bait. Don't give them what they want i.e. a fight and conflict.

My concern is I predict there will be a lot more new threads and OPs looking for a fight, as the public becomes more aware of the issues and the tide starts to turn against TRAs. They will want to try and get this Place closed down for discussion, and none of us want that to happen.

Personally I have found it empowering to learn how not to engage and to turn it back on them if absolutely necessary, by the use of ridicule and short rebuttals of their nonsense. I am happy to share some techniques if it will help plus learn more from others. There's no point in trying to score points and win all the arguments they make as it's the engagement down their rabbit holes they want - they literally feed off conflict. They're anti-social remember, so any attention is better than none. They want to keep you coming back and arguing, so they can derail, prolong, provoke and generally make life difficult for MNHQ - to force them to take action. The negative attention "turns on" those looking for a fight….so please don't feed them, ignore them and lets keep this place open.

Message for MN:

Hi all

Since this thread is getting near its end, this seems like a good moment to make a really serious point.

We've just made some more deletions on this thread, and we're pretty exasperated tbh - we feel we're running out of ways to say 'please stick within the TGs or risk losing MN as a place to discuss this issue.'

We're really proud of our commitment to free speech, and we put a huge amount of time and resources to enabling this debate to take place - as many of you have pointed out, it's one of the few places left.

To those who haven't yet been able to stop and look at things from our end of the barrel - please understand that you're risking this space for everyone; if you really can't debate civilly with those you disagree with, it might be time to consider that MN is no longer the place for you. We're sorry to have to say this - we don't like it one bit - but tbh nothing else seems to have got through so far: we're at a point of last resort.

Thanks to all those who modify their first instincts and manage to make their points in a calm, considered and civilised manner - even in the face of goadiness. We appreciate it (and so would Michelle.)

Thanks all

MNHQ

I don't see why we should mediate genuinely held opinions because people reading might not like them, or dilute the community spirit by censoring out shared jokes and understandings because people reading don't want to read enough to understand them. That is not what MNHQ has asked us to do at all.

This.

I'm not sure what's shocking about the word 'truscum' unless you've encountered it in context and know it's a particularly horrid piece of abusive name caling. If you know that then it is a shocking word, and even more shocking that a trans MNetter wears that as a user name to signal the abuse they have received from people claiming to be acting in their name. In that one word Tru intentionally demonstrates exactly what is wrong and shocking about this whole TRA agenda, and it is powerful. I would hate for Tru to feel policed here too into wearing their abuse more nicely and quietly in case someone casually dropping by on a thread might theoretically be put off. Tru and Yet and Jaycee and numerous other MNetters who are openly trans have always been very happy to patiently answer any questions or aid someone's understanding, they're generous that way. So are most of the regular posters here. Questions welcomed.

Too many mousses I’m getting confused!

I don't see why we should mediate genuinely held opinions because people reading might not like them, or dilute the community spirit by censoring out shared jokes and understandings because people reading don't want to read enough to understand them

Totally agree with this. It's harder as well to keep track of what the hell everyone's about when there's a million and three posters on every thread.

I feel very ignorant - just done a quick google of Truscum.... what does the name actually mean? I know what the beliefs backing it are.... and scum seems an inherent part of the name - but where did it come from and what does it mean?

I've got TERF - and currenty couldn't yet reclaim it, I am so shocked by the violence expressed towards "Terfs" - though am going to enjoy telling people what it REALLY means as in Telling Everyone Real Facts....

I would hate for Tru to feel policed here too into wearing their abuse more nicely and quietly in case someone casually dropping by on a thread might theoretically be put off

And absolutely this

I'm mostly a lurker and wanted to add that you lot helped me to develop a vocabulary when talking in RL about GC feminism and women only spaces.

-Yup sometimes things get written that make me wince from the GCers. What helps me not turn away from the self id debate is from reading and learning from transwomen involved in MN discussions because when it comes to self-id isnt this who we need to hear from? Both women and transwomen.
-There is so much middle ground but for some reason some TRAs don't want to see it???

• multiple posts help lurkers get their heads around things and (dont slate me) tbh I've read a lot of threads and there's plenty I don't get. I probably won't get everything on here because the speed and intellect is waaaaaaaaaay beyond me.
• Leading on from that point I think sometimes mners write to such a high standard that I do not realise you have been insulting lol. So maybe I don't quite get how anti-trans/insert something else/TRAs some of you are? So yeah call each other out for the lurkers please
• Putting that to one side I love that there is this space on the internet and I think @mumsnetHQ should be proud of this space and all of you who contribute to it.

And my last dumb lurker thought
... misogyny and those who perpetuate it really really really hate when women celebrate their amazingness and the spaces that they create. So I'm gonna keep loving mn and the posters

Back to lurking!

I feel very ignorant - just done a quick google of Truscum.... what does the name actually mean? I know what the beliefs backing it are.... and scum seems an inherent part of the name - but where did it come from and what does it mean?

Truscum is a pejorative given to trans people (by other trans people) who think you aren't trans if you don't have dysphoria and mostly don't buy gender identity ideology.

The opposite term used to be transtrender (trans people who are doing it for social kudos and/or don't have dysphoria). But I think this seems to have largely fallen out of use now as the trans umbrella definition of trans has become dominant.

I also think it's reasonable to point out that we are being held to a far higher standard of discourse than others involved in this debate. this, god this.

The abuse and unfounded insults from some over at twitter are staggering if you think about it. If MN posters named TRAs, contacted their employers, called them vile and abusive, insulted them with offensive words such as cis and terf and then said they were comitting literal violence against them and making them feel
suicidal - can you even imagine the uproar?

WTGLWGH indeed

can you even imagine the uproar?

Joke. JOKE!

I just want to say thanks to all the clever posters on here. Thanks for putting the time and effort in.

I appreciate that we have to be incredibly careful on here, and, realistically, that means holding ourselves to higher standards than it seems others are necessarily held to.

However - while I appreciate that the idea was meant well - I don't like the suggestion that there are too many posts. I think a lot of people are kind of having their minds blown right now and need somewhere to go to hash these things out. I think the idea that we are "obsessed" or something is just a version of "let it go". While there is every need to be polite and non-absuive in what we say, there is no need to be polite in the sense of thinking it inappropriate to raise certain topics, or raise them too often. In my opinion.

I've started a post on chat for people who find the trans debates on here scary and aggressive sounding, but want to know more. @IfNot @Playdohnut @koyaanisqatsi come along if you fancy it.

I think so many different issues are getting conflated and driven to extreme examples we are not talking about protecting the rights of all people.

Let’s get some basics. Women have the right to be protected. Trans folk have the right to live without being subject to hate.

The Equalities Act 2010 gives women the rights for single sex services were it serves a proportionate and legitimate aim.

So if a woman’s refuge decided in the circumstances that a trans women should be excluded then they can exclude her now.

There are no plans to change the protections women already have. It is total propaganda to say that the protections are being taken away. They are not. Amber Rudd and many others have made that very clear.

Currently a trans man or woman has to live at least two years in the gender they will live the rest of their lives in, have to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria and show they have made a significant contribution to society in that gender. The only thing the trans community is asking for is to self declare via a statutory declaration punishable with two years in jail for perjury for falsely claiming they are living full time in their gender.

The idea that a man self ids as a women one day and goes back to living as a man the next is complete fantasy.

Any man wanting to be predatory towards a woman will do so. There is no way that he would go to the solicitors first before acting. It is just a made up fantasy.

We should focus on stopping predatory men not focus hate on a vulnerable group of people just trying live their lives like you and me.

Sue, how would you define 'woman' and 'man'?

We should focus on stopping predatory men not focus hate on a vulnerable group of people just trying live their lives like you and me

I absolutely agree with this. I'm worried that the move towards self-ID has the unintended consequence of making it impossible to tell the difference between predatory or opportunistic men and vulnerable trans people. I worry that this will backfire on the trans community as well as on women and girls.

Sue - there is a UK Police officer who DOES identify as Female one day and Male the next, so not ‘made up fantasy’ at all.
Trans groups are absolutely pushing the removal of Single Sex exemptions.
You’re welcome

The idea that a man self ids as a women one day and goes back to living as a man the next is complete fantasy.

What about Pip Bunce?

I suppose in the eyes of the law he is still a man, but he has won awards that are meant for women?

It's not exactly 'complete fantasy' is it?

Pickleme what a good idea.

It’s somebody’s complete fantasy...

The Equalities Act 2010 gives women the rights for single sex services were it serves a proportionate and legitimate aim.

Unfortunately the Equalities Act seems to have created a lot of confusion.

Schools are being advised now that a 15 year old female runner who questions whether it is fair for her to compete against somebody with a male body should just be told to deal with it.

The Girl Guides don't seem to know whether girls going to camp should have the choice of sleeping in single sex accommodation.

The Labour Party can't explain why they include some and exclude others from All Women Shortlists.

Its pretty much impossible for a public figure like an MP or an academic to disagree that Transwomen are women.

The protections women have exist because we can define ourselves on the basis of sex and clearly explain how we differ from men, but prominent trans activists call this exclusionary.

The idea that a man self ids as a women one day and goes back to living as a man the next is complete fantasy.

The original criteria was based on the fallacy that it is possible to live as a woman, but equally how do you live falsely in a gender? How would you know the difference?

To protect the rights of a specific group you have to be able to define who they are.

So if a woman’s refuge decided in the circumstances that a trans women should be excluded then they can exclude her now.

Well, if the refuge was in Scotland now, and did not have a blanket trans inclusion policy, the refuge wouldn't even exist because it wouldn't be eligible for funding. Same for any other women's orgs and services.

The only thing the trans community is asking for is to self declare via a statutory declaration punishable with two years in jail for perjury for falsely claiming they are living full time in their gender.

I can see why some trans people might want this, I truly do. It must be very hard to be in that position. However I have worked with many pts who want a diagnosis and who don’t want the process to be rerouted from medical channels for a number of reasons.

Also, if someone swears their declaration how do we know? Do they carry ID with them to prove it or do we just take them in good faith? Lots of women have spent a life time learning not to take Male bodies people in good faith, I’m sure you understand why that is. Is there a proposed system where we could look up their status as someone who has sworn a declaration? Because there is no point in having laws saying someone will face criminal charges if they abuse the system if there is no way of knowing who has and hasn’t sworn a declaration.

Also what happens to the growing number of de-transitioners? Would they then become criminals or forced to live in their newly acquired gender identity?
I hadn’t seen the proposals about the 2 years in prison, do you have a link?

Sorry if that feels like a million and one questions, I am genuinely very interested in your reply.

Any man wanting to be predatory towards a woman will do so. There is no way that he would go to the solicitors first before acting. It is just a made up fantasy.
Is it? Men have trained and worked as vicars, youth workers and teachers before now to access children and vulnerable women before. Why wouldn’t they do this.
Anyway, that’s not the point. It’s the way that shops, groups and businesses are changing policies. It’s the way that a woman now feels she can’t challenge a man in a woman only space.

We should focus on stopping predatory men not focus hate on a vulnerable group of people just trying live their lives like you and me
That’s exactly what we want to do. But we can’t for all the shouts of TERF. I think it is fair to say that none of us want to stop anyone living in the way they want and makes them happy. We just want to not give predatory men an open door.
Even the op of the T thread said that there should be something to stop ‘chancers’.

Agree Simon.
No one wants to stop people happily living their lives how they choose..unless they are damaging others in the process. The loss of single sex provision and estate for women and girls is extremely damaging. Female people need protection from male people. Female people need protections based on sex.

The only thing the trans community is asking for is to self declare via a statutory declaration punishable with two years in jail for perjury for falsely claiming they are living full time in their gender

How would you tell if someone made a false declaration?

And given that it's illegal to ask to see someone's grc, how would you tell if a male-bodied person in a female space had even made one in the first place?

The mantra is 'transwomen are women' - and self ID will allow anyone who says they are a woman to be a woman.

Self ID also states that no hormones, or actual transition needs to have taken place to identify as the other sex. As gallantly shown by 'Man Friday" Mumsnetters.

So how do women protect their spaces which are set aside on the basis of biological sex, if biological sex becomes meaningless?