What I don’t get about the GRC

[minniebear]

I’ve been reading around the issue and am familiarising myself with the impact trans rights are having on women/girls. I’m not sure if I’m correct in thinking the GRC means a person can change their birth certificate. The thing I don’t get is whether it is evident on the amemded birth certificate that it’s been changed, or if you get a fresh new one in the opposite sex?

It's a legal fiction isn't it? Makes no sense to me. Seems bad law.

I think the GRA should be repealed now as no longer fit for purpose. Present as whatever gender you like but don't pretend a person can change their biological sex as that isn't possible.

Apparently they are issued with an amended copy of their birth certificate - the original certificate / entry of birth isn't changed. They can use the copy certificate for 'everyday' use, eg for proving identity when applying for something.

There were some interesting posts a few weeks ago from someone who transitioned decades ago, explaining a lot of the practicalities. Will see if I can remember which thread.

On my phone and don't know how to do links.

Jayceedove's posts on 21 March are well worth reading for the history and and reasoning of the GRA. They are on the thread about the TRAs targeting the union official on a picket line.

It has taken me ages to understand that with the aquisition of a GRC, you have legally changed sex. Because it's so mad I just couldn't get my head around it.

But then it means that any exemptions in the Equalities Act that relate to your new sex are now applicable to you even though in all likelihood are not subject to the issues these exemptions are designed to combat.

So for example a transwoman will:

• not have been socialised female with all the 'don't offend, don't out yourself forward' that goes with that. No need to be on all women short lists then

• not be smaller and weaker than most men. No need to be in single sex spaces when in vulnerable positions like getting changed then

Still can't do links but I've progressed to copy and paste. The later posts on this thread in AIBU are very informative insights from people who have already transitioned:

To be shocked/worried at the Transactivists treatment of this woman?

sorry, not related to birth certificates I know.

I think one of the main reasons for the GRC was so that trans people could marry their partners, as at that point they were in homosexual relationships in the eyes of the law, and equal marriage was not a thing then.

Equal marriage for trans people was addressed before equal marriage for gay people. Notable no?

I have problems with incorrect terminology, being somewhat pedantic and all, not that I always get it right but the law needs to. We talk about 'change' sex, which is impossible, when it means something closer to 'be acknowledged as someone of the opposite sex'. The medics recently issued a position statement talking about 'assigned sex' when this term should only refer to intersex babies, in the rest of us - the vast majority obvs - it is observed. They did correct that. But I can see very bad law being drafted.This entire area is grey, not surprising as we're down a rabbit hole with the light fast disappearing behind us. Others have said this too but what does 'live as a woman' mean? As for 'feel like a woman'? I am a woman and I feel like me. And birth certificates: mine is useless as I have changed my surname twice since I was born so it proves nothing about me.

It just worries me that there becomes no paper trail. That surely they should get a different type of birth certificate/“I’m officially now a transwoman because I’ve met (whichever criteria the GRC stipulates)” certificates. Apologies if that offends anyone.

I just can’t get my head around erasing the past. As people have said a billion times, it’s a neutral fact, you were born with male/female chromosomes, how you decide to live your life subsequently should be up to you as long as it doesn’t negatively impact those around you. Surely?

Thank you for the links btw yetanother I shall go and take a look.

I think it might have been sevenhex who identified the issues from a historical record keeping perspective... will see if I can find the link

It’s become clear recently that the UKPA are issuing passports in the “new sex” upon request, without a GRC. Ditto DVLA.

So the current mess is extremely complicated.

With out sounding like a tin foil hat wearer, I do genuinely believe that this whole thing is an organised pushback against women’s rights.

If you make the distinctions between man and woman irrelevant, then you can quietly take away legal sex protections (maternity rights, not hiring women, segregated spaces, positive discrimination quotas etc) and nobody can do a thing about it. We’ve already had a woman being unable to sue for discrimination at work when she wasn’t given the legally required room to express breast milk after returning from mat leave. Because men can lactate. Very soon we’ll have women sacked for being pregnant, with no recourse as ‘men’ can also become pregnant. The protection there is based on sex, not pregnancy itself.

This is a planned, coordinated push.

Ephraim

The comments yo make re discrimination re breastfeeding and being sacked for being pregnant are not accurate as pregnancy and maternity are discrete protected characteristics in the Equality Act - see section 18 EA. In practice the rights are actually stronger than other protected characteristics because you do not need to show less favourable treatment than a comparator but just unfavourable treatment

@justicewomen

Go and google “pregnancy discrimination” & “maternity discrimination”. It’s epidemic in the U.K., despite the law.

There was a floral protest by London Bridge not long ago with a bloom for every woman discriminated against each year.

54,000.

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/politics/charity-launches-biggest-ever-protest-against-maternity-discrimination/

(And maybe be honest enough to drop the womanface, while you’re erasing women’s oppression.)

Battleax

Not sure the point you are making. Totally agree that there is widespread maternity and pregnancy discrimination.

But that is not related to the current clash of protected characteristics between sex and transgender rights.

It is, in my opinion, more to do with precarious employment, difficulty accessing legal aid through the Legal Aid Gateway, the failure to increase the means test thresholds for legal aid so fewer people qualify, and until the Unison case, the fees for ET.

It is important not deterring more women from seeking out help challenging all types of unlawful discrimination by myths saying rights have disappeared. They are in the Equality Act and as I said separate from issues relating to sex and transgender

And you will see from my posting history I am both concerned about the sex discrimination consequences of self ID; and I am a woman/mother

But that is not related to the current clash of protected characteristics between sex and transgender rights.

Of course it’s related.

The desire of businesses to commit maternity discrimination on an industrial scale is clear. It’s widespread and documented.

The trans narrative and self ID will make it easier for businesses to do so. “Men lactate” was used to support a ruling against a breastfeed mother last week. It’s starting.

All very convenient for commerce and the TRAs. They will use it and they will support the trans cult for that reason.

It is important not deterring more women from seeking out help challenging all types of unlawful discrimination by myths saying rights have disappeared. They are in the Equality Act and as I said separate from issues relating to sex and transgender

What’s important is that women open their eyes to the fact that the “self ID” law will render the term “woman” legally meaningless, and by extension, will make much of the protection in the Equality Act unusable and unenforceable. De facto adoption of self ID policies by individual organisations is starting that process even ahead of legislation.

Unless. you are aware of another one, google shows the lactation case was in the US so with different legislation ;and was in 2015 not last week. www.snopes.com/news/2015/02/06/milkman/

As I said under the Equality Act if you come under the protected characteristic of "pregnancy and maternity" you can challenge unfavourable (not less favourable) treatment related to P&M so the fact. that a transman with a GRC may be able to lactate is legally not relevant

You’re not seeing it.

What do you imagine the impact of the proposed GRA amendments will be on the EA once they’re enacted?

Battleax

Where I agree with you is the risk to the protections afforded under the protected characteristic of "sex". Currently the Equality Act is clear in that it is binary (see section11). It also allows for single sex facilities/services where it is a proportionate response to a legitimate aim (schedule 3 part 7)

However the GRC legislation has blurred it without there being any consideration of biological discrimination . Self ID will exacerbate the issue. I do think that the companies/services that are opening up current single sex services to self ID-ing transgender people are risking indirect sex discrimination claims (and I am aware of some being contemplated)

But bringing in pregnancy and maternity discrimination is a red herring as they are separate protected characteristics.

The comments yo make re discrimination re breastfeeding and being sacked for being pregnant are not accurate as pregnancy and maternity are discrete protected characteristics in the Equality Act - see section 18 EA

Yes but doesn't "maternity" protection only apply for quite a short time after the birth?

Phantom pregnancies that we all have to take immensely seriously are only half a step beyond that. Lactation as a unisex activity has now been accepted in another jurisdiction. How long until someone relies on the same on a U.K. case? TRAs are already furious at any suggestion that menstruation, ovulation, gestation, lactation are the preserve of adult natal females. If the legal definition of “woman” crumbles, maternity issues will be the next frontier.

Do you use twitter? It’s very clear hanging about on there which way the wind is blowing on all this. ATM the fringe TRAs are a juggernaut of entitlement that nobody is able to successfully counter with logic or fact.

(That was to justice.)

Erishgal

That is true; so in theory there may be issues re extended breastfeeding at work (where you would have to rely on sex discrimination claim). The argument that some transman can lactate might theoretically impact direct sex discrimination but you could still plead it as indirect sex discrimination