Women and useless men

[Bumpitybumper]

I am always so perplexed reading threads on MN about relationships where these absolute waste of space men seem to be able to avoid doing their fair share of the domestic/childcare work despite working similar hours to their partners and also manage to escape being burdened by any of the mental load associated with running a household. Then we also have the threads where a couple has split and the father maintains the bare minimum or no contact with the kids and child maintenance is often unpaid. In all these scenarios women are disadvantaged by the actions of these men. Also where there are kids involved it just seems that the behaviours modled by these men are seen as normal and then get entrenched in the attitudes of the next generation and their view of what is acceptable.

Of course this problem is one that relates to male behaviour so men have the responsibility and are best placed to tackle it, but I can't help but feel that they lack an incentive to do so as ultimately they aren't detrimented by this. So what can women do to be a catalyst for change? When thinking about what women could do I thought of the following:

1. Mothers should educate their children about equality, fairness and respect in a relationship, and not blindly support their offspring if their behaviour does not meet these standards. (obviously fathers should do this too but just focusing on women got the purposes of this list)
2. Women should tackle inequality early in relationships in regards to the division of domestic duties. It's much easier to sort these things out early before kids arrive and add yet more work. If the man won't pull their weight, the woman should be prepared to leave (see point three below).
3. Women have to be prepared to leave relationships that are unequal and unfair. Too often women stay because they love their DP but their DP doesn't love them enough to pull their weight.
4. Women should shun men that do not support their kids adequately. There shouldn't be an option to just move on and start again with another woman.

Has anybody got any other ideas of what women could do that could have some impact? Am I being super naive to even think the points above could work?

I honestly think some women like it.

As in they are pigeonholed so much by society and sexism that, rather than realise how useless their partner is and that they have been essentially acting as unpaid slave they convinced themselves that it’s because they are so essential and valuable because they are the only ones that can do all of these things.

Fishfingers I know a woman like this who almost seems to boast about her useless man and the fact he's never got up with the kids at night or changed a nappy. I think you're right about her getting a kick about how dependent he seemingly is on her. I guess she sees it as a form of power over him as he wouldn't be able to cope without her. I think what she forgets is of course he would be able cope if he was forced to do so and if he was going to leave her, he would find some other poor woman to pick up the slack anyway.

Eugh. I could not love a lazy man, and I couldn't love a man who didn't support his children. I appreciate the definition of lazy varies, but how could you be with a man who neglects his children?!

Similarly I wouldn't date a cheater, and stories of "my psycho ex" would put me right off.

The problems I’ve identified and experienced are:

Economics - you need to be able to support yourself and your children if you plan to get rid of the useless man. I think this realistically involves not having many children - perhaps one or two - if you’re left high and dry. Smaller numbers are easier to support and house.

Childcare - it’s easier to work if there’s two people in the household. Shift work in particular is difficult to do if you have no access to wraparound childcare.

Self esteem - some women believe they aren’t worthy of being respected and treated as an equal so tolerate a useless man as she believes she can’t do any better.

Child Support - successive govts refuse to properly sanction fathers who refuse to support their offspring.

Wifework - if you refuse to do it, it doesn’t get done as men are usually happy to live in a midden and don’t care if the kids are fed or the laundry done. They often have very low standards which you have to be prepared to live with if you plan to go on strike. It’s probably more hygienic to move out and leave them to it in which case they’ll just wait until another female comes along who is prepared to undertake the role.

If I’d had a daughter, I’d have advised her to train for a job where she could support herself and her child/ren by herself in the event of family breakdown.

Limit the amount of children she has.

Save money to provide an escape fund if she should ever need to go independent.

Lay down very strict ground rules regarding housework.

Personally, I think men should have to pay a financial deposit which they automatically lose if they become useless and refuse to contribute equally or won’t support their children. Men value money more than domestic arrangements so won’t want to lose their deposit and might make more effort if they think they will.

areyouTERFenough Great list, I found myself nodding in agreement to most of it.

I think the idea of a deposit probably wouldn't work sadly as the deposit would have to be sizeable to make a difference and many men would be unable to afford to raise that amount of money and then potentially have it locked away for years (or potentially ever).

I agree about women supporting themselves to an extent but then I think there are already a lot of families with two incomes wondering if they can afford to have kids. I think some women would definitely struggle to earn the kind of income you would need to support a family single handedly.

My mum is one of those. While my dad would be just fine without her and probably very tidy she is obsessed with cleaning and ironing and infantilises him to a huge extent - I believe to make up for something but I’m not sure what.

But she is the type of person that needs to be needed as it validates her existence IYSWIM.

She also doesn’t seem to think sexism exists.

Some women put men on pedestals and put up with a lot because of that. Kicking them off the pedestal comes with but when you are younger you buy into the coupledom thing, want to please him, I can change him given time. I think both sexes have been sold a pup when it comes to relationships. We are all meant to aspire to be in one but it is not the be all and end all.

I couldn't be in a relationship with a man I saw as lazy or not doing his share.
What I don't get is the women I know who revel in being the housewife. The ones who have "full time mummy" in their facebook name and seem to see it as their life's purpose.
Each to their own and all that, and they certainly don't seem to be doing it because of low self esteem, but it's not for me.

My family were having a laugh the other day about how my brother in law doesn't know how to use the washing machine. I thought it was pathetic.

I have 3 sons and I certainly won't be bringing them up thinking it's funny to be a big baby being 'looked after' by a woman. I have a daughter too, this scenario frightens me for her- so many of my friends and family think it's perfectly normal for the women to clean up after their partner and children 24/7.

AreYouTerfEnough has covered a lot of the points I thought of, particularly economically - there's also the fact that once children arrive the option for women to step back to the same level as a lazy man is not feasible as then the children suffer.

There are charities working with low income women who say that changes to benefits, legal aid and ability to access secure housing means that women who leave even DV partners are being forced to return for economic reasons because there's just not enough support available for single mothers.

In terms of what we can do - I quite fancy the idea of a woman's strike like they had in Iceland in the 1970s to increase the visibility of women's unpaid labour and the contribution to the economy. I also think that we need some way of calculating the economic impact women have through pregnancy and raising children - UK GDP is just shy of £2 trillion, how much of that would be possible without a next generation?

Oh yes to PP, 'Full time Mummy' kills me. I might be a single Mum to my 4 children but, there's more to me than that!

NKFell I have a decent man that does his share but I am always super aware that this isn't necessarily the norm and that frightens me too. I think a lot of people think you're 'lucky' if you find a man that does the same as you do. Just writing that has made me feel very sad indeed. I don't want girls growing up thinking the default is that they pick up the slack for these useless men

I waver between thinking that women should not put up with helpless men in relationships and then wondering quite how helpful it is to put the onus back on women to make the change. But I really don't see how anyone could be attracted to incompetent men, I want a partnership with an adult - we should be encouraging girls and women to see this the same.

Bastardgingercat I wasn't aware of the women's strike in Iceland but sounds great. Also completely agree about somehow translating pregnancy etc into a currency everyone can understand (i.e. £s). This will help people understand the importance of women's contribution to society.

Also agree about not putting the onus on women to change men but in the absence of men making any kind of concerted effort who is left to right for change?

Seeing as there are lots of feminist heavy weights in these parts - does anyone know if someone has tried to calculate the economic input of gestating, birthing and raising a child?

GDP per capita is around £40k in the UK of which I'd guess at least 40% must be dependent on labour rather than existing wealth. I've tried googling reproductive labour but all the results are around unpaid work (caring, cleaning etc) which whilst substantial fails to account for the fact that if women en masse decided they didn't want children, we'd have no economy left.

I think a lot of it is self-esteem based. Back when I was childfree and dating, I had dealbreakers that included anyone with a messy car or home, any 'Mama's Boys', any man with kids, any who had an ex on the scene or referred to 'my psycho ex' or, further into the relationship, if I discovered he was being enabled in life by another adult and/or incapable of adulting, or who expected dinner on the table and all the lifework done by the woman, no matter how much I cared for them/liked them. That was like a bucket of ice water on my libido.

But a number of friends were incapable of staying single, were rescuers that felt needed by cases like this (when really, to men like this, women are replaceable as long as they enable him), or thought he'd change for them. And years later, are either stuck with a selfish, lazy minger, or divorced.

It's important to try to recognise the signs, learn to recognise the signs, when possible.

I've certainly fallen for it, the love-bombing guy who later on tells you he's 'old-fashioned' and bangs on about everyone 'earning their crust' is telling you he expects a flatmate who will work FT and split it all 50/50, but one he can fuck and who will also cook his dinner and wash his socks.

The other issue is that when you find yourself with one of these specimens, and you've already procreated with him and you want another child, depending on your age and financial status, a lot of women go ahead and have another with him as it's convenient.

Prevention is easier than cure so teaching our children to value themselves and their own company, to not be sexist, to spot a sexist and to remember that if you don't love yourself first, then no one will ever truly be able to love you because love is respect, to be financially prudent and make sound financial decisions and/or seek impartial help before making big financial moves (even on forums like this, moneysavingexpert and the like) goes a long way.

I have lived alone for too long to put up with that sort of shit.

I’m also fairly lazy and messy so the idea of me cleaning up after someone or doing their ironing is laughable. I don’t even iron my own clothes.

My ex's were lazy and whilst the father of my eldest 3 isn't 'the worst' i.e. he pays for his children and sees them a couple of times a week, he is seen as being 'a really good Dad'. I wonder if I had left and did the same I'd be seen as a 'really good Mum'- I doubt it!

From other women I mostly either get pity 'oh it must be so hard' etc. or I get judged negatively for being single with 4 children. From men I think I'm mostly avoided.

I also work full time so that attracts the same attention, I'm either 'SuperMum' (thought by few) or my children must be suffering (the thought of many).

And also manage to escape being burdened by any of the mental load associated with running a household

Personally I think there is a huge over-egging of this mental load which includes including elements which would matter not one whit if omitted.

I agree that economics is a big factor. Having an education/profession to support yourself and any children on your own is a massive power boost. I'd recommend spending your early 20s focussing on your career, casually dating and learning some lessons so that when you settle down you are well paid and clues up.

Then it really is about teaching our sons and daughters what is right and fair. Teaching boys how to cook and clean and that this is their responsibility as much as any future partner. Teaching girls about their self worth and how to say 'no'. Getting your DH to sing from the same hymn sheet and if he doesn't getting rid.

Then teaching your daughters how to spot the sexist losers before they marry/breed with them. My colleague's dating tip was to ask on a first date what a man's signature dish is because then you have a dish he can produce at least once a week forever. It's a tip of the iceberg thing, but I appreciated the general direction she was going in. So DH and I discussed splitting domestic responsibilities early in our relationship.

I think his parents did a good job of getting him to do things like the family ironing. His dad set a good example by cooking and doing more housework than his generation generally did and lots of childcare. And although I'm not a fan of boarding school it did make him much more independent than many men I've dated. He can cook, clean and fix the car. In fact he's better than I am, I can cook, clean and pay someone to fix the car!

Honestly I think this is s huge part of why I’m single. Unwillingness to accept this kind of thing and other other “male” behaviours.

The entitlement, the disregard for women that’s so common now. - all of that.

There doesn’t seem to be many decent ones out there. I know they exist but I don’t seem to come across them.

I think staying single is the logical choice. If you can't meet a man who meets your standards there is no sense putting yourself through the grind of an unhappy life. Far too much pressure is put/placed on having children, and that is how they get you.

Maybe we need to tell daughters about adopting as a single parent as well then - all the benefits of a child and none of the disadvantages of a man child.

'Maybe we need to tell daughters about adopting as a single parent as well then '

Or using a sperm donor. There was a documentary on C4 recently called 'Viking Babies' about women who used sperm donors from Scandi countries where the donor can still remain anonymous.