Women and useless men

[Bumpitybumper]

I am always so perplexed reading threads on MN about relationships where these absolute waste of space men seem to be able to avoid doing their fair share of the domestic/childcare work despite working similar hours to their partners and also manage to escape being burdened by any of the mental load associated with running a household. Then we also have the threads where a couple has split and the father maintains the bare minimum or no contact with the kids and child maintenance is often unpaid. In all these scenarios women are disadvantaged by the actions of these men. Also where there are kids involved it just seems that the behaviours modled by these men are seen as normal and then get entrenched in the attitudes of the next generation and their view of what is acceptable.

Of course this problem is one that relates to male behaviour so men have the responsibility and are best placed to tackle it, but I can't help but feel that they lack an incentive to do so as ultimately they aren't detrimented by this. So what can women do to be a catalyst for change? When thinking about what women could do I thought of the following:

1. Mothers should educate their children about equality, fairness and respect in a relationship, and not blindly support their offspring if their behaviour does not meet these standards. (obviously fathers should do this too but just focusing on women got the purposes of this list)
2. Women should tackle inequality early in relationships in regards to the division of domestic duties. It's much easier to sort these things out early before kids arrive and add yet more work. If the man won't pull their weight, the woman should be prepared to leave (see point three below).
3. Women have to be prepared to leave relationships that are unequal and unfair. Too often women stay because they love their DP but their DP doesn't love them enough to pull their weight.
4. Women should shun men that do not support their kids adequately. There shouldn't be an option to just move on and start again with another woman.

Has anybody got any other ideas of what women could do that could have some impact? Am I being super naive to even think the points above could work?

Maybe the answer is for men as a class to take some responsibility for their behaviour to women, instead of women taking on that burden to solve?
I think this is true, but I guess the whole reason why we have this problem is individual useless men and men as a class don't want to take on this responsibility. It is counterintuitive for them to want to change a situation that currently favours them at best or doesn't impact them at worst.

Maybe the answer is for men as a class to take some responsibility for their behaviour - but why would they make their own lives more challenging, if they don't have to?

Of course it's not always as easy as that, and there are DV and similar situations. But there does seem to be somewhat of a contradiction in how some women see men.
On the one hand, they are way more capable than those women and the women claim/believe they would never manage without the man. Those men always had way better earning potential, no question.
At the same time the man seems to be an over-grown toddler, who simply does not realise that the dishes are not magically self-cleaning, that children might need a coat on when it's snowing, that his mum might expect a birthday card - poor darlings just can't be expected to handle all this.

Check any housework/childcare related threads and there are plenty of women commenting that 'men just don't see it', 'men are like that, did you remind him? No? Your fault.'

In my experience men will only do stuff they’re interested in or which makes them money.

I’d be interested to know how same sex couples deal with household and child rearing activities. Do they fall into traditional roles depending upon personality or is stuff shared?

When I was dating I was always quite conscious of trying to ensure that we got on, that there was mutual attraction but also I was really trying to be liked - the classic female socialisation. So it didn't really occur to me to be trying to check whether my dates were suitable partners, if you see what I mean?

It's like when I was younger I'd go for interviews and I'd be so desperately trying to impress that I wouldn't ask any challenging questions about the role or organisation in case that put them off me. Now I'm confident in my worth as an employee and I want to know whether I actually WANT to work at the company so the interview is as much a chance for them to impress me as vice versa.

Now I'm sure some women have this dynamic from the start of dating, but I feel like a lot of younger women in particular are more like me. It could be a useful thing to teach younger girls, along with the Shark Cage analogy about boundaries and red flags.

It has to be societal / cultural expectations. Men really do seem to put themselves first / are selfish so much more than women and particularly when kids come into the picture. And I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, just that it is that way and it hugely disadvantages women who are socialised to behave differently when children come along. There seems to be a huge double standard in the expectations for fathers and mothers. Women who abandon their children / feed them mcdonalds are vilified - men, not so much. I think it would be really interesting to see divorce stats broken down by reason for the divorce. I'm betting for a large number of women, the man not pulling their weight (and feeling totally knackered at having to do everything) is a big factor.

I think lifework and money are major causes for divorce.

I think socialisation and societal expectations have a lot to answer for.

I was also thinking how pregnancy, birth and breastfeeding are all burdens carried entirely by women. I wonder if there is some sort of precedent being set when a new baby comes along especially during maternity leave, where a man gets used to having children but not shouldering the bulk of the work and responsibility that goes along with it.

This is compounded by the hormones and experience of being pregnant/ giving birth plus the extra time a mother spends with a baby during maternity leave that maybe means that generally women are quicker to form a deep bond with their babies. I think this is relevant as it drives mothers to go that extra mile for their babies from the start so if there is a reluctant father (i.e. useless man) the woman will pick up the slack rather than see their baby's determented. Even if these men go on to bond with the babies, I think once again a precedent has been set that the children are more the responsibility than the man and this mothers end up doing the bulk of the work.

Ive started a similar thread in Relationships after finding this article.

graziadaily.co.uk/life/opinion/i-ve-dumped-my-mum-friends-who-treat-their-husbands-like-an-extra-child/

The comics I read in the 70s influenced me in my early relationships. Jackie was full of "to get a boy you fancy find out what his interests are and pretend you like them too, hang around the places he frequents " etc. I'm sure Princess Di following that sort of advice was partly responsible for her disastrous marriage to Prince Charles.
As I grew older I realised being myself and following my own interests meant I met men I was much more compatible with, oh and playing hard to get is a total waste of time. Men either fancy you or they don't.
I always imagine the women who end up living with men and having kids with them without agreeing the ground rules first like finances/ housework/ childcare must be very young. It's a shame female menarche doesn't start at 30.

"I think your point about not presuming women who end up in these relationships are stupid is valid and important. However I do notice that there are some women that tend to get involved with these useless (not necessarily abusive) men time and time again. I do think that there is an issue with these women that is related to self esteem and low expectations that helps explain why this keeps happening"

In the case of someone i knew at school (she has learning difficulties) is a reason why it keeps happening.

the latest one is making all sorts of excuses why they shouldnt live together.................has told her she needs to move away from her nosey neighbours into another house (cos thats as easy as pie when you are renting) then after that she can move AGAIN in with him and then he backtracked on this

Another gem he has come out with is that she should get a higher paid job (shes on minimum wage) when he knows this will be very unlikely due to the learning difficulties i have mentioned.

She wants more than he is willing to give ..........yet he was happy to "encourage" her to diet to show her commitment to his sexual gratification to him.

sorry to be clear he wants her to get a better paid job and then she can move in with him.

HelenaDove That relationship sounds morally dubious at best. If that relationship was to progress how your friend would like then you could definitely see how once kids come onto the scene, she would be stuck enabling a useless man. I think the warning signs are pretty obvious in this case, but she does seem to be blinded by love (possibly learning difficulties not being helpful here either).

I do think that the more women that accept this kind of behaviour, the harder it becomes for the rest of us to set boundaries and expectations with men in our relationships. We all look to reference what is going on in wider society to sense check if our relationship is deemed to be fair. This can be useful when someone is in an abusive relationship as they can see that other relationships aren't like their's and that there are better ways to do things. Conversely though I think where you do have an equal relationship but the majority of relationships in society remain unequal, it can make it harder to maintain the equality as the man inevitably feels that they are going beyond what is expected to keep up their side of the bargain. I guess if it was a performance review at work when a couple is performing equally on the domestic front a woman would view her contribution as 'meeting expectations' whereas the man would view his contribution 'exceeding expectations' and thus worthy of additional praise.

Is there a generational aspect to this? Many of the examples of crappy behaviour may be anchored in the cultural norms of the age group. I suspect and hope that people under 30-40 have an entirely different perspective.

In my own case I was born in the late 60's, my DM was a SAHM all my life. Until the day I left (to get married) I had never made a bed, washed/ironed clothes, cooked, washed dishes. I never saw my DF do any if this, nor my three brothers. As you can imagine the early stages of cohabiting was problematic.

Fast forward to today's generation, we have three DC's (1m, 2f) born in the 90's and they have grown up in a home of two equal working parents that share all tasks.

Maybe the answer is for men as a class to take some responsibility for their behaviour to women, instead of women taking on that burden to solve?

Of course they should, @Katara. But why - and how - would they relinquish that selfishness when no-one ever expects and demands that they do? All children have a natural selfishness and self-centeredness, after all, and children who are not taught by those around them that this is unacceptable frequently stay that way. I think selfish men are often simply the legacy of naturally selfish children, but whose selfishness has been tolerated and even endorsed by parents, society, and eventually female partners too.

Be honest - if you had been able to get away with putting yourself first your whole life, if society winked at it and would tacitly acknowledge that your needs are most important, would you stop doing it, simply out of some abstract sense of justice and fairness? I don't think I would.

DrMorbius I think the scenario you describe where a SAHM does the majority (all) the housework was more common in the past. However, I'm not sure I would define the men in these types of set ups as useless as often the women would do the bulk of the housework whilst the kids were at school and their husband was at work so the men and women put in comparible levels of effort (although possibly not exactly the same).

I think the shift to more women WOHM has upset this balance as now the mothers often spend a large amount of time working out of the home but then also get landed with most of the domestic work too. It's almost as though useless men are happy to have their cake and eat it. They want the domestic help a SAHM could offer but also the money a WOHM can bring in.

badger that’s a great post. I remember feeling so grateful that a man would ask someone like me out or want to have a relationship with me that I didn’t stop to ask questions. I’ve gone full circle now and if me and dh split I wouldn’t be interested in a relationship with another man as there are no men of my acquaintance that pull their weight practically or emotionally so the odds of finding one that would seem too small to bother with.

Women have low standards because they’re encouraged by society. How many male role models in any media are cheerfully cleaning toilets, looking after kids or elderly relatives or providing emotional labour for friends or loved ones? It’s hard work to go against the grain and I know lots of people with boys in particular, don’t bother to encourage any unstereotypical behaviour and actually find it comical when their offspring are rude, selfish, violent or lazy.

I get that men won’t want to change unless there’s something in it for them. The trouble is the only things you can withdraw is yourself from the deal (as I imagine many women do these days), and it’s whether enough women are doing that to make a difference. Perhaps they are and the moaning of the ‘nice guys’ who can’t get a girlfriend are the natural consequence of this, but they don’t see it’s them that are the problem so it’s not working, yet!

I don’t know, Queen, what you describe would mean I was getting at the expense of someone else, which is not fair, so I find it hard to envisage. It makes me depressed if that really is the answer, that men as a class cannot see past the end of their own noses. History and experience would indicate that it is true, but goodness grief, what does that say about humanity?

This thread is bad for my mental health

Does this help @Katara?

My DH is very much a 50/50 guy. So there are some. I think his parents really helped set this in motion as his dad cooks, is an active parent, they taught DH domestic skills as a child etc.

I'm about to give birth to two boys and we have already discussed on several occasions how to raise two feminists that can cook and clean and budget for themselves and on the back of this thread we've been discussing it more.

Although I'll be taking the lions share of the maternity leave on the basis of having breasts and good maternity pay, DH will probably share some parental leave at the end. I earn double what he does so no chance of me becoming trapped at home. DH will go part time and I will compress my hours. We'll both do a day a week from home so share childcare equally. We have a prenup to protect my assets.

I am friends with two other couples with similar working patterns who totally share childcare and domestic work. At least one other couple with a prenup to protect her as she massively out earns him and I think they pay someone else to do all the domestics and childcare.

I also know numerous couples where it's not completely 50/50 but the men aren't useless either and probably pull their weight overall when you factor in increased working hours and being unable to share breastfeeding.

So 1) there are useful men out there, 2) there are women protecting themselves financially and domestically and 3) there are parents planning to pass this onto the next generation.

Some hope?!

I’ve posted before about The 50/50 Fallacy........

I think they pay someone else to do all the domestics and childcare what's the chance the people doing this are predominantly female? This is the problem - care work / wifework is undervalued whoever does it, even if paid. It's a structural problem but I do wonder if the current system of expecting people (mostly women) to do this sort of work for peanuts might be about to implode, as there are more and more rumblings about the "true" cost of childcare and eldercare.

Ineedacupoftea I noticed that statement too and thought that although outsourcing these responsibilities is one way to make sure that there is equality in a relationship, I don't think it's for everyone. Personally I didn't have children to outsource ALL the childcare and I think it's important that both parents spend quality time with their kids. I would be thoroughly disappointed and still classify my DH as useless if he thought he could outsource his responsibility to spend some time with the children as this would really impact bonding and negatively affect their emotional well-being.

Sorry I meant the childcare required ie mon-fri. They still see their children. And their friends. They just work full time, and don't clean or do grocery shopping.

Bumpity yes: what would it say about our society if the only way to ensure an equal relationship were to outsource the mundane tasks of life? The majority of men would still not be doing them or valuing them as we know cleaners / childcare workers are mostly female. Also, the fact is that only the very wealthy can afford to do this entirely. And even more so if the cleaners / childcarers were paid as they should be.